Mixed 1st Date Signals

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Name: Maura |  Location: East Village - Manhattan |Question:       This is a two part questions. The first question - Have other people found that the first time you meet someone from Match or a similar website, that the first meeting is not an actual date but more like a formality where the two of you meet each other face to face? I used to treat the first time I met someone from an online dating site like it was a "first date." Over the last six months those "dates" actually feel like interviews where we decide if we want to go on an actual date. Take today for example. I met a guy online yesterday and he suggested we meet up this afternoon for coffee or a drink. The "date" lasted almost exactly an hour, with us ordering guacamole, chips, salsa and a margarita for me and two cokes for him. It lasted almost an hour, with him ending the date after almost 60 minutes on the dot.Now here's my second question. The check came. I reached into my bag and pulled out my wallet. We both looked at the tab ($28) and I saw him put down a $20 so I put down an additional $15. I was disappointed when he didn't tell me to keep my money and offer to pay for the tab. I assume that's a sign that he's not interested, correct? Or did I maybe send the wrong signal by offering to pay my half? Should I not have said anything? He walked me to the corner and offered to get me a cab. He was meeting a friend downtown. He mentioned something about meeting a guy friend for a movie and having to go home and correct papers afterwards (he's a teacher.) I told him he didn't have to wait for me to get a cab. He didn't. Another bad sign, right? Or another mixed signal from me?? He said he'd call me Monday, which I took as being polite. I don't know if I should contact him and tell him I wasn't trying to blow him off or send a mixed message. Should I send a polite thank you e-mail and tell him that if he's interested in getting together that I am , too?|Age: 35

Okay. Let's tackle the first question. Yes, I have noticed that the first time you meet someone from an online dating site it's more like a prelimary interview. The date lasts an hour or so. I don't think people should expect that first meeting to be some sort of marathon date. It's an oportunity to meet to make sure that you're who you said you were in your profile. These meetings aren't really "dates" at all. They're meetings where both parties decide if they want to go on an actual date. People shouldn't be spending hours getting ready for one of these "dates." Look put together and polished, but don't go over board. It's too much of a time investment for such a quick meeting.

Now, for the question about the check. That's a weird situation. It's quite possible he thought, because you were offering to pay your half, you weren't interested. Then later when he offered to wait for you to get a cab, I could see how he might think you were dismissing him a bit by telling him he didn't have to wait with you.But, sorry to say, I think if he were interested in seeing you again he would have offered to pay the whole thing and told you to put your money away. And common courtesy is for the man to stay with the woman while she waist for her bus/cab/chariot etc. Even in cases where they aren't interested, the guy should still wait with the woman until she's in the cab. So..is this guy just rude or was he assuming you weren't interested?

It wouldn't hurt to follow up with him via e-mail and tell him you had fun and that you hope to get to know him better. Worst case scenario is that he'll say he's not interested. But sending a "nice to meet you" e-mail is polite and doesn't make you appear desperate. Just don't ask him to get together again. Let him do that. Go half the distance and shoot him an e-mail. If that doesn't clear up the mixed messages then he just wasn't interested enough to see you again.

But, as a side note, a $28 tab and he doewn't offer to pay the whole thing?? I think I'd be offended on top of disappointed. Granted, he's a teacher and they're not paid nearly what they should be paid..but $28? Come on.

YOUR THOUGHTS?

YOUR THOUGHTS?

Comments

[aphexcoil]

"But, as a side note, a $28 tab and he doewn't offer to pay the whole thing?? I think I'd be offended on top of disappointed. Granted, he's a teacher and they're not paid nearly what they should be paid..but $28? Come on."

No, you come on. Why is it disappointing when a guy doesn't automatically spring for his wallet to cover the bill? Why is there always so much emphasis placed on who pays what? Who initiated the date? Time and time again, I've noticed a few things from first dates.

a) Some women are OFFENDED when a guy offers to pay.
b) Some women EXPECT a guy to always pay.
c) Some women are willing to go dutch and pay their portion of the date.

This *is* a first date, though. Generally my rule of thumb is that whoever asks the other person out to dinner or a date should offer to pay for the date. If it is the woman, then let her pay.

This is the 21'st century. Women are making more money today than they ever have. Let's stop being so petty over who pays what and focus on getting to know the other person.

Also, every first date I've ever been on is a quasi-interview. That's why you're on a date for the first time! You're there to learn about the other person. I don't see a distinction between a first date, and a date used to see if future dates are needed. That's the whole purpose of going out with someone for the first time -- to get to know them better.

[aphexcoil]

"Or did I maybe send the wrong signal by offering to pay my half? Should I not have said anything? He walked me to the corner and offered to get me a cab. He was meeting a friend downtown. He mentioned something about meeting a guy friend for a movie and having to go home and correct papers afterwards (he's a teacher.) I told him he didn't have to wait for me to get a cab. He didn't. Another bad sign, right?"

You are over-analyzing the date. Go with your gut instinct. You spent more time describing the subtle details of your date and didn't even touch on how the date went at all. Did you feel any chemistry between the two of you? Did he laugh or smile at you? Was his body language open towards you or did it open more so as the date progressed? What was your "gut" feeling? Generally, if people spend more time focusing on the particulars of a date, it is to counteract their gut feeling that the date was mediocre at best.

Call him up and talk to him! Ask him if he had a good time. Don't be afraid to just ask the other person. If it didn't go well, there's a billion other guys out there.

I can't tell if she liked him or not...

[Carrie]

I've had perfectly good dates ruined when the check came and the man allowed me to pay for my half. Everything up to that point was wiped away. If a man asks you out, he should pay. Especially if the tab is so cheap. That just makes him look like a cheapskate.

[he's dead, jim!]

It was an interview. And it was right that you offered to pay your share. I would not read into the signals here, but if the guy were really into you, he probably would have splurged for the extra 15 bucks.

Ditto on the comment by anonymous. Who cares if HE liked YOU. Did *you* like *him?* If not, don't waste any more time. Send a polite thank you email and be done with it. We ladies spend far too much time in analysis of what things "mean."

If you do like him, then write to him and suggest another meeting. If he is not interested he will:
1. not respond (which is rude, but happens all the time or;
2. write back and tell you that he does not think you are a match (can sting, but it is considerate).

As I have written many a time.... if a man likes you, you will know it. Men do not do things they don't want to do.
Namaste.
~HDJ

[Pepper]

Over the years I had 3 somewhat lengthy relationships with men I met on-line. In two cases, what started out to be just drinks turned into a meal. In the other case, he directly asked me out for dinner. Far more common were the one hour coffee or cocktail dates which didn't pan out. I have learned to pre-screen potential men by chatting with them at length at least once before accepting a date which prevents time wasting and disappointment.

[Biff]

I'm from the old school of dating. Whether I was interested or not I would not hesitate to pick up the entire check and when I walked her to a taxi I would not only see that she got in, I would give the driver $10.00 to cover the fare. It is called being a gentleman. If he didn't want to spend any money take her for a walk in Central Park or spend an hour in a free museuem.

[mr-happy]

Most of the times I pay for a fist date, but I found in general the only purpose of a first date is to see if you have any interest in any further contact with the person, especially if it's an internet date which more often then not are disappoints in one way or another. So if go low like coffee or one drink if you don't want to pay the bill as a man, most of the times the women is fine with suggesting something simple.

I say fuck the first date bullshit games [don't worry, be happy] and just try to connect with the person emotionally, if you can't do that, then physically will not be all that great anyway. If something is meant to happen it will.

The figuring comes in to it when someone really likes the other person allot and then are waiting to the answer to the 100,000 question does the person like them. Otherwise if both folks like each other what's the rush to find out.

This is a classic reason why dating multiple people until you settle on one is not a bad idea.

Cheers!

[Denver Dater]

WHEN IT COMES TO MONEY
Don’t be an idiot. This is a date, and much like any new situation, you are trying to put your best foot forward. (They don’t ever say, “Put your cheapest foot forward”) Pick up the tab on the first couple of dates. Real women are not idiots and we know money doesn’t grow on trees. That’s why we appreciate it so much when you buy us dinner or a movie ticket. We will gladly offer to pay when things become a little less formal, but it is the gesture of a gentleman to allow you the illusion of being taken care of. (At least for a little while)
Here’s another helpful tidbit. This may not have ever crossed your mind but it really is the moment of truth on a date. Don’t let the check sit on the table. It scares us. We begin to wonder if you are going to pay it or if you expect us to start digging in our handbag. With one outcome you save the day by finally paying the bill so we can be on our way or at least continue our conversation. With the other, we are frantically looking for a way out and hoping that we never see you again. It is humiliating to be out with a guy who makes you pay. We feel as though everyone is staring at us thinking, “I wonder why she’s with that loser”. Why not eliminate all of that, and just pick up the check?
I have met guys who think that “Going Dutch” is a good idea. Ok. I will take some time to explore this for you. There are still plenty of guys that understand that a guy should pay. These guys are your competition. Figure it out.

[Debbie]

This happened to me recently. We had a one hour coffee date. He seemed okay, I sort of liked him, he's shy so wasn't sure about how he felt about me. He paid for the coffee...big whoop I know but I've had guys actually let me pay before.

He wrote me the next day (good sign) and said how about date 2. Date 2 we met for drinks and then dinner. I knew after 20 minutes he wasn't for me and think he felt the same. He paid for drinks

At dinner, which was torture BTW, when the check came he reached for it and I offered to pay half. At first he put up a little argument but I insisted because I felt bad knowing I had no intention of seeing him again. All my friends tell me I'm an idiot for doing that. There attitude is usuallly that the guy is lucky they go out with them so they should pay. I don't feel that way and it perpetuates this dinner whore attitude.

I am a little old fashioned in that if I like the guy and he asks me out I think they should pay. But I don't have him take me out for an expensive dinner. I usually suggest a drink, of which I have one because I'm not a drinker. So usually my portion of the tab is way under $10. I used to offer to split it and now I don't. I let them pay. if there's a second date for say dinner, I usually offer to pay half. If they let me, then it does sort of leave a bad taste in my mouth. These are guys I would see again so I know that if they pay for dinner the favor will be reciprocated down the line as I'll either treat them or cook a nice dinner for them.

So i feel it should be a give and take. It should be fair unless one of the 2 in the relationship is wealthy, since I'm not.

From what I've read here, it sounds like especially in Manhattan many feel this sense of entitlement, that the guys should ALWAYS pay because they are lucky to be going out with these women. I think there's a very easy way around this either with a first coffee date or just meet for drinks. If your date orders up a huge bar tab then this is a good sign of what you can expect down the line

And while I agree, this woman is making a lot of assumptions about how the date went, my intuition tells me he wasn't that interested. The financial part of it aside, I think if he liked her he would not have ended the date after exactly one hour and usually men who are interested do e-mail or call the next day. That's been my experience anyway. The ones who don't aren't interested or if they take a week they usually are just looking for somene to have sex with

[Emma]

The one hour to the minute date has become a new sweeping trend. I've had 3 dates like that in the past couple months and each time I've left feeling humiliated, like the guy had to force himself to stay and talk to me. This is more common with online dates, which I've now sworn off. They're a huge waste of time and money. I took a cab uptown to meet a guy half way for a date ($25 in cabs) and then had to pay $15 for my portion of the tab. He took the subway down ($3.00) and had 2 cokes ($8) and we ate chips and salsa (another $8) The minute I ordered a margarita and he ordered a coke I knew he wasn't interested. He wasn't an alcoholic, either. Totally humiliating.

[Craig]

But, as a side note, a $28 tab and he doewn't (sic) offer to pay the whole thing?? I think I'd be offended on top of disappointed. Granted, he's a teacher and they're not paid nearly what they should be paid..but $28? Come on. - Moxie

Why would you be offended and disappointed? Because your ownership of a vagina entitles you to a man paying your way? Being treated by someone should be a treat and a privlege - not an expectation or a right. A woman should be greatful if a man treats her, but not think less of him if he chooses not to. This dude is a teacher. Maura should be especially ashamed of herself if she's an investment banker or some other high-paying profession. It's time to let go of the 1950s dating culture in this age of independent professional women earning as much, if not more than, men. Your "traditon" is obsolete.

"I've had perfectly good dates ruined when the check came and the man allowed me to pay for my half. Everything up to that point was wiped away. If a man asks you out, he should pay. Especially if the tab is so cheap. That just makes him look like a cheapskate." - Carrie

The fact that you didn't get a free ride is the only thing that ruined the date? I think that is more a negative about you than him. Your guideline of whoever asks, pays is self-serving, because it never happens on your end. How many guys have you asked out and thus paid for? Yeah, that's what I thought.

Look ladies, most men don't mind treating a lady - once they've decided she's worth it. The one hour meet 'n greet trend is a result of the actions of some of your own: the dinner whores, the women who misrespresent their weight or age on their dating profile. Men want to know what they're getting before making an investment. Can you blame us? So if you get to the point where a guy is genuinely interested and goes to pay, make the offer to contribute. Because nothing is more of a turn-off for us than a self-entitled woman. For everyone of you ladies who doesn't sincerely offer to contribute, your competition is the ones who do.

[Denver Dan]

Amen Craig.

[Moxie]

I live over on East End Avenue, the farthest avenue to the east in the city. For me to get anywhere by subway also involves a bus ride and a walk to That bus. I'll travel a total of an hour/hour 15 minutes ONE WAY. If I'm pressed for time then I take a cab, which costs me upwards of $12-$20 depending on where I'm going. I once recently agreed to meet a guy for a drink. He lived up on 183rd street. I picked a place at 110th on the west side. That's $30 right there roundtrip, plus the tip I always leave. So I've contributed $40-$50 to a date. We make contributions, too. Just because it's not at the dinner table doesn't mean we don't make financial contributions.

[Steve from the city next door]

Thanks for saying that Craig, that is exactly what I was thinking.

I was just thinking that all the women I have been in a relationship in the last 10 years (maybe 15) have demanded to a least pay something on the first date and then some how let me know that it was not a sign of disinterest. Perhaps this is more a statement about me and my values. I believe in modern values e.g. Men don't have to always pay for dates, Women are people (not property) and should be able to do such things as vote and own property.

[Denver Dan]

Perhaps the date is being responsible and accepting his economic reality as a teacher. Maybe it is his MO to share the expenses of the first date to quickly filter out the girls who feel they are entitled to having everything paid for. Perhaps he knows as a teacher he needs to find a wonderful woman who doesn't have money on her mind as a criteria for a guy since he knows he won't meet that criteria. As a result he's saving both him and her time so they can both move on to find someone more compatible.

As a side note it seems a few posters really slammed this guy for not paying for everything but really I bet Maura makes more money than her teacher date, knew that fact, and still expected him to pay it all. How about shame on her?!

[aphexcoil]

Moxie you paid to get to the date and call that contribution?! Do you also factor in your monthly match bill, makeup expenses and rent because he might come over for the night?

Wow.

[Mr-Happy]

Someone said

"The guy is lucky when we go out with you"

Fuck no.... We're both lucky if we meet someone who we can empty into each day, who we deam worthy of our attention, who will put up with our bullshit [it's amazing how emotionally needy many women can be, really you gals are!], no you girls are just as lucky as us that we put up with you, because here is the dirty little secret, you need us as bad as we need you!

Frankly if I am really not felling it big time and I know I do not want to see you again, I will offer to split the check not pay, and that's a hint to the ladies I am not interested at all....

We do have choices, and in a hard economy it's true , a gentleman is even more in demand, and women who know how to give make a man feel good.

E'NUFF SAID People!

[A Tree in the Forest]

I agree with Craig and Denver Dan's comments above. Denver Dater and Debbie's girlfriends are exactly the type of gold diggers most decent guys hope to weed out as early as possible. I think most guys are happy to treat a lady who is both appreciative and likely to reciprocate in some way (financially speaking; no sexual contract implied) early on in the "getting to know you" stage. When we catch a whiff of the "entitled princess" attitude, we've learned there are other psychological and high-maintenance issues usually associated with that type and look to move on. Who wants to deal with that aggravation when there are so many other fish in the sea?

To the OP's second comment, you clearly stated "I told him he didn't have to wait for me to get a cab." So, why are you upset? When he offered to wait with you, you could have just as easily said "Thank you, that would be very nice of you." Since he apparently had another appointment to make, you shouldn't be deducting points from the guy for taking you at your word. Try being forthright and honest next time.

[OhRick]

>> "the guy is lucky they go out with them" <<

I guess, we know what they are, we're just negotiating price?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Seduce the mind... and the body will follow!

Me thinks, you are too quick to "Hook up!" Perhaps, the lost art of quill & parchment (okay, emailing) and a few purposeful phone dates (provided, time and conversational skills are present?) Would, perchance, improve the mutually gratifying results of the eventual "Scratch & Sniff" encounter!

Using this methodology, my batting average is rewardingly high. I just don't swing at pitches I don't like. I almost always get on base… doubles a given… triples are delightfully common… and stealing/crossing home plate, a gratifying inevitability! To use that antiquated, yet, still illustrative scoring method, which we all can relate to. (I still hear women use it! )

The key is to build a woman's curiosity to the point that she is getting impatient over your NOT doing - what all the other men tend to do - push, too eagerly, for that first meeting.

Be a man, and control yourself, along with the courtship ritual (...such as it is?)

Besides, you should get in to a woman's head, long before trying to get in to her... otherwise? How she regards herself, is a precursor (if not revelation) as to her personal standards. (Too many STD's to contend with.) Give her the chance to demonstrate her level of self-respect? Moreover, there are no guarantee's. But, the more time you invest... the more you can venture further with a little more confidence.

Quality over quantity. Some STD's are forever! Know thyself (...and know thy quarry!)

Just as the easiest person to sell, is another salesman. Those women who believe they have game, are the easiest one's to game in return! But, with those women... the prize is rarely worth it.

"Want to play a game?" The answer is (always) not to play.

If you don't negotiate the terms of surrender ahead of time, then the financial burden is on the host. If you can't (or won't) pay all or part... suggest inexpensive scenarios, negotiate or don't initiate! If you find a woman who insist on paying then let them. (If they still come across, you need to write a book?)

Unless found in a chance and serendipitous encounter, I do my "Dating" in text and voice. If you build rapport and stimulate mutual desire... then the long awaited "Date" truly could be a fitting climax. That being said... I like to be three dates in to the conversational exchange, before the actual "Date." That makes the meeting, more of a formality to insure some level of physical acceptance and visual affirmation.

The Internet is a rich and abundant resource to be culled. You just have to be patient, and develop your communication skills, in order to find the truth! The sweetest fruit is harder to reach. If it's too easy, it's probably bruised or sour? (Analogies R Us!)

We men all want the same thing, but how we go about it defines and separates us. Unless you're {Insert name of generational heartthrob.} Then you need to bring something different to the table. Something that makes you stand out among the other dogs, which we are correctly assumed to be.

Invest in the "Discovery," before you catch that cab. (By the way, what's a cab, I'm from the beach in SoCal… I prefer to catch waves!) Then invest wisely in the activity. If you do this correctly, then, if nothing else, you will at least be in the company of someone you developed some affinity with. You might even have a good time together, not worrying about all the other dynamics that pressure you. It's okay to be friends (…even friends with benefits?) It doesn't always have to be about… The ONE!

The real thing... real love... takes time! When you stop looking, you just might find it? To find a friend... you have to be one.

Love is friendship caught on fire!

Make friends before you make love! Trying to buy a woman is a sign of weakness! And most women will exploit it, intuitively. Women are the grand seductresses. They will always be steps ahead of men and ultimately grant intimate access at their personal whim. They understand all of the time and effort that it takes to present themselves, while men rarely do? (For women, the meter is usually running!) Consequently, they appreciate any sincere effort you return. Spend more interesting and thoughtful time then you do money, and you just might find more than you bargained for?

If that is what you want?

[Jessica]

All this talk about being a poor teacher is ridiculous. Even someone working at Starbucks can afford to spend an extra $15 to pay the tab. Come one, we're not talking about a fancy restaurant here. It just shows the guy has no class.

[Anonymous Redhead]

Oh Rick, Truer Words were never spoken "We men all want the same thing, but how we go about it defines and separates us." along with "Love is friendship caught on fire. I was one of the really lucky ones that my husband and I met through business and were the best of friends before we ever dated so we never went through any of the stuff I read about here for which I am more grateful than words could ever begin to say. This blog is such a wonderfully informative blog but sometimes I feel bad for people that both sexes often come off in such negatives ways. There are really great people out there but it takes time and patience to get to know people first before having sex. I do absolutely believe more people ruin relationships because they cloud everything else with having Sex too fast. I know there are people here who say they had sex on their first date and they are happily married but I honestly believe that rarely happens. Too many people have sex, fall in love, get married and realize they really aren't friends and no matter how wonderful sex is Marriage without being best friends is a hollow way to live and without true friendship people look elsewhere to fulfill those needs.

[OhRick]

Money will never buy or equal class. It's a behavior... learned... or natural and striven for characteristic.

A gentleman makes no assumptions, regarding a lady. No matter how ulterior your motives... the pleasure of her company is all that can be expected. He takes charge and handles it, so the lady can relax without any distractions or concerns, otherwise.

The host is charged with the moment. The guest with courteous company. If this is not going as mutually hoped for, either party can cut-short the activity, with decorum, or brutal honesty. The resulting tab remains the responsibility of the host. To expect otherwise is crass.

Just as when you invite someone to your home, the comfort of your guest should be paramount. This is not a responsibility unique to one gender, but an assumed and reciprocated courtesy of the host or hostess.

Here, HE was the host. He initiated the rendezvous and took responsibility for the both of them. He failed to alert his guest in advance of the possible terms, allowing his guest to decide her acceptance based on full disclosure.

"I'm having a party and would love for you to be the guest of honor. And by the way, it's being catered and I would like you to help pay for it?" (Huh?)

Not sure if many "Guest of Honors" would comply with this invitation, but if so... they would make their decision being informed of their obligation, in advance.

This idea of... If we are hitting it off, I'll pay for all of it, and if not... you need to kick-in... is rude, and a risk to your reputation. It could cost you more than you realize? Just as you should use caution with people who handle your food, so should you use the same discretion with people who could affect your social life. The world is smaller than you think! Gossip prevails.

If a guest offers to contribute, it is not always completely sincere, but more of a self-imposed, and somewhat obligatory formality. You should always thank them, courteously... but decline their graciousness. (Unless, you have a genuine issue that would be understood by the guest.) If they strongly persist... then they, themselves, may have a reason. Then it's your call?

Whether your party is for one, or a hundred... it's your responsibility, unless disclosed to the guest, e.g., pot-luck, bring booze, etc.

Ladies, as strange as it sounds, because a gentleman really should make all details perfectly clear! Perhaps, it's time to start qualifying your suitors, by further clarifying their terms of engagement? Make a confirmation, of some sort? Be direct! Ask? (This issue keeps popping up!)

"Are you asking me out for a date... are you asking me out as your guest?" Or, "Are you just suggesting we meet?" "I'm not sure I understand?" Make him clarify! (I can't believe [Men?] need this, but apparently they do?)

As a man, I certainly understand the confusion brought about by the ever changing playing field, when dealing with women. Still, I see it as manners. Unfortunately, in the womans effort to be equal with men, gentrification has been harmed. We know, that having a vagina, always tips the scale in your favor. Until the Japanese replace you with an audio-animatronic doll, with a volume and mute switch... moaning good... bitching bad! You have Rabbits... we have to get a grip on the situation.

Men... how about stepping-up and making it clear to the lady, how you intend to handle things as the host? TELL HER she's your guest, and everything will be handled. After all, you are trying to remove obstacles to her decision processing, just in case your not God's gift?

Make her feel comfortable... "This Saturday, I'd like you to BE MY GUEST for dinner and a nice walk afterwards. The limo will pick you up at 8pm, it very casual, so dress accordingly. I'll be wearing sandals, white speedos and a bow-tie." Note: I didn't ask her what shes doing Saturday (An uncomfortable question, which should only be answered... "Not you!") I told her exactly what I had in mind... made it clear she's my guest... casual restaurant... and how I would be dressed! Everything she needs to make a decision, and how it would be, if she agrees? See, easy! Try it?

Lets face it... she has something you want (...and you both know it?) Like it or not, you have to give a little, to get a little? (Unless your the Governor of New York... then you are paying WAY too much?) But, then he was buying discretion. Oops!

Too much whining by both sides! It's a communication issue, since we're all equal now. (Except for that damn Vagina.)

[OhRick]

Anonymous Redhead...

Yes, you were a "Lucky one" all that time you were building a foundation with someone, and didn't realize it, until... wham! There you were. And sex was a reward, instead of an instigator.

You don't need to be married to be happy, but it sure helps to be happy to get married! Being friends is a great start, because you can always fall back on that when it gets tough. And it does!

People don't realize how important commonality is to a strong relationship. Opposites may attract, but commonality holds and endures.

It takes time to discover genuine commonality. No body takes the time to find out? If people would just focus more on building positive relationships, instead of always evaluating others for their own agenda... we'd all get along better! And people would find more of what they are looking for.

The same theme always seems to surface in these Blogs... poor communication... bad attitudes... being unrealistic... and not taking responsibility for ones self. It's all nothing new. The same problems have always been a constant, just the players and the dynamics have changed and now we can Blog about it.

Life is simple and to enjoy! Quit over-complicating it! Lighten up, already!

You can express yourself on these Blogs to learn other points of view, but it's usually the person YOUR having issues with that you should be directing your feelings to?

As John Lennon said... "Life is what happens to you while your making plans."

If you knew you only had a year to live, how would you live your life differently? Duh! Try to live that way now! A short life could be truer than you realize?

Start by being more honest with yourself, and much more with those around you!

Married, huh? Darn... killed that redheaded fantasy! *Smile*

Back to the trenches! My buzz is wearing off.

Thanks, Red! :)

[mr-happy]

It's not about paying for many guys, they are happy to pay if they feel they are getting a good return: SEX.

Otherwise what person wants to be an emotional sponge for a few hours, pay a bill [guys if you budget does not allow for an expensive first date then don't do it], put up with what ever bullshit, all just to make some women feel good about herself, Of COURSE us guys do not want to do this if we're getting nothing in return except hanging out with a pretty face, we can buy a copy of playboy and do that. Sorry ladies but since this IS a what's in it for me society, ask yourself what's in it for us guys that makes you a great catch, maybe your only a ok but not a great catch.

I think being a gentleman also means realizing if you are not interested, then stop the date, make sure she gets home ok and leave.

all guys would pay all the time if they thought they would get laid, yes it's a risk guys take for a first date, but not a 2nd one unless you are want too.

I have found that there are not that many NYC women I have met who have the potential to add that much to my day to day experience besides from sex [ladies don't take it wrong, I just see an amazing sense of entitlement many times and little in return], I think there is an ocassional exceptional girl, but in general in exchange for some maybe ok sex many women expect a man to jump thru allot of hoops and other bullshit, but the real question to ask ladies and answer honestly is what can we all [and that means you ladies too] really bring to a relationship besides from your faminity, and sex, and the answer for many gals who have crazy expectations is almost nothing. Mox is one women who has the balls to call out these situations, but that I think more and more men are getting fed up and starting to treat dating as a comodity like anything else, so you see allot less love these days and more people going for the most pleasure then can get..

Well we reap what we soe...

[Anonymous Redhead]

Oh Rick, just as an objective observer I do have to say this - in addition to, I am quite sure, your extraordinary qualities, the fact that you seem to be an extremely articulate man tells me that the intellectual stimulation you offer to the women you choose to date increases their attraction to you tenfold. I am in complete agreement with you about "commonality holds and endures". This is just my personal opinion, in observing other people and in turn doing the exact opposite for our marriage, I believe problems occur in relationships because first the true friendship is lacking and second because people allow too many people, whether they be friends or relatives, into their inner circle and in the end these people take away from the closeness of the two people in the relationship. Just my opinion from my observations.

[Ellie]

Am I the only one who agree with the men here? A guy (or woman) is not entitled to pay for the whole bill during the first date. I've gone out with several people where we go "dutch" and it never became a problem. If you're meeting someone for the first time, do you want to invest money for something that may not last? I know some of you mentioned that you do not live by a subway line, but is that the guy's fault? Personally, I feel if one is always expecting a guy to pay is being a little bit high maintenance. The focus should be on the date and not how much he is contributing in monetary funds.

[trouble]

~~~I've had perfectly good dates ruined when the check came and the man allowed me to pay for my half. Everything up to that point was wiped away. If a man asks you out, he should pay. Especially if the tab is so cheap. That just makes him look like a cheapskate.~~~

I totally do not understand this perspective. If what you are doing is looking for a possible longterm relationship, not just sex, then both people are making an investment of time (and financially) to see if this lead pans out.

Why should it be solely the man's responsibility to invest, financially, in meeting people with whom there is the potential of romance?

This is freaking absurd.

[Jaden]

Do any of these men remember chivalry? I guess that's dead amongst you folks...

[Denver Dan]

"All this talk about being a poor teacher is ridiculous. Even someone working at Starbucks can afford to spend an extra $15 to pay the tab. Come one, we're not talking about a fancy restaurant here. It just shows the guy has no class."

Do the math Jessica. If this guys is doing matchcom and has 6 dates a month. Even if he did the cheap date for every six of those and offered his date a cab ride home that becomes over $250 per month. That's now counting the collateral expenses of a date which Moxie and others want to count in.

I do very well for myself so it wouldn't be an issue for me but it wasn't too long ago where I was in this guy's economic economic position.

[trouble]

By the way, I guess part of it is that I want to date a man who sees me as his equal, and not as a subordinate. The idea that the man must always pay for the date is simply that old patriarchal ideal of the dominant male and the subordinate female. I have no intention of being that girl, and I wonder how many of you have actually thought through what this expectation means in terms of the power in the relationship. I'd prefer to pay my own share, always. A man who isn't comfortable with me sharing the expenses is also probably not all that comfortable with a woman who has equal status in the relationship and/or who may out-earn him. I don't want a man who sees my job as subordinate to his own, or who sees my role in that way. I want someone who is truly an equal in every way, and I think the right man will understand that perspective.

Difficult to find in this neck of the woods, where men prefer to be in control, financially and otherwise...So, whether a man can gracefully assent to me paying a share of the check says a lot about his perspective on women in general.

[trouble]

~~~Do any of these men remember chivalry? I guess that's dead amongst you folks...~~~

You know, back in the olden days, like the 1980s, when women were working very hard to prove that we were the equal of the men in our lives, we realized that such concepts as chivalry applied equally, to both parties.

So, that means that women could be considerate enough to appreciate the significant expense that dating poses to men, and make a REAL offer to share that expense, instead of posing it as a fake test of someone's value, and penalizing them if they don't live up to an archaic standard that we've banished from almost every other part of our lives.

And there are plenty of ways for a man to be chivalrous WITHOUT paying. For instance, I often go to my boyfriend's apartment for lunch because it is 5 minutes from my office, and he works from home. Every single time, he is thoughtful enough to make me a nice lunch, and basically serve me in that way.

On Saturday, before a barbecue we hosted at my house, he was outside, without even being asked, cleaning the chairs and tables on the deck, cleaning the grill, and sweeping off the deck. I thought that was pretty chivalrous, particularly when he fetched a ladder from the garage and cleaned my gutters and roof, as well.

Of course, none of that cost him anything, and when we go on dates, I almost always pay half. Or, he pays for one activity and I pay for the next.

There are many ways for a man and a woman to treat each other well, but this insistence that men must always bear the financial burden of dating is just archaic.

[he said what?]

denver dater you scare me. All the women i've had good relationships with have all been the ones to go dutch. and I think that's how it SHOULD be. What a double standard you are. Why should a man have to pay? don't get me wrong, I'm chivalrous, and open doors and all that, but what I'm looking for in a woman is an equal partner. I'm not looking to be the domineering man and controller of the relationship, and the woman is just along for the ride. I want you to be 50% of this relationship. We're a team.

When I'm out on a date and a woman doesn't want to pay her share, or EXPECTS me to pay, that immediately creates an unhealthy balance between us. That said, I dont mind paying, adn TAKING CARE OF YOU if we're in a *relationship*, but on a first date? Please. I'm evaluating you as much as you are evaluating me. And more importantly, I'm evaluating US. If you want to be the housewife at home, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, and cook and clean for me and raise my kids, then yeah, I'll pay for everything. But if you want something a little more elevated than that Neanderthal standard then you and I are partners, equally.

[Quirky]

If he were interested, he definitely would have paid for the check...unless he's extremely cheap, which is unlikely. It's a first date, and the bill was only $28. In my experience, even if the guy isn't feeling you that much, he'll usually pick up the check out of courtesy. As far as the cab goes, he should have waited with you.

He said he'd call you Monday, so if he likes you he will, if he doesn't, you'll have your answer very soon. Either way, don't call him.

[Mr. San Francisco]

Going Dutch really takes the romance out of the date. What makes a date different then going to lunch with a completely platonic friend if you don't offer to treat the lady? Take turns treating each other - make the date a special experience for the other, rather than a competitive one. Part of seduction and romance is being generous hearted. If you are a guy who would bicker about a $28 tab, then I really do think that the ladies are better off without you.

Mr. San Francisco every comment you make here on various posts leads me to believe you are a really fantastic guy.
You have NEVER said anything I found offensive and even the people who I generally like their posts sometimes say really offensive remarks. Whoever the girl is who captures your heart is going to be really lucky.

[aphexcoil]

"If you are a guy who would bicker about a $28 tab, then I really do think that the ladies are better off without you."

You're missing the point. The women are bickering about the guy's paying the $28 tab. I have no problem picking up the tab if I ask a woman to dinner. However, if she asks me out, am I still supposed to pay?

Women make great money in today's world. Many of them who want equality still want the man to pay for dinner, have the man propose and purchase a $15,000 engagement ring and still let them have the lifeboat first when the ship hits an iceberg.

And some women wonder why they have such difficulty dating men? :)

[John]

Relax, Relax, Relax...There is far to much analysis taking place here. In what I like to call a "double blind date" which is one that originates without a reference, such as takes place when meeting from an online dating service, the first meeting is indeed, or should be, an interview. This provides both parties with the opportunity to verify at least some of the information exchanged, and probably most important, just to get a sense of any level of compatibility. If both parties have an interest in seeing one another again, or not, should be part of the discussion. After all, we are all adults? The world is full of wonderful, interesting people, many of whom I would find fascinating, but would never date, and vise versa. Have that discussion.

In regards to whom pays, it has been covered thoroughly above, but is still awkward. In this situation, I do not think the man did anything wrong. As one who prefers independence, I am always pleased when a lady offers to pay, but have rarely accepted. The exceptions have been in situations such as these, when for whatever reason the moment felt awkward. Again, just relax and don't read to much into it on a first meeting.

A much larger concern for me is the incident with the Taxi. A gentleman never, never, never, leaves a lady alone like that. Despite what the person above thinks, Chivalry has nothing to do with whom pays, or with whom has the upper hand. Chivalry is all about a code of conduct, a respect which is a two way street. Not paying for the Taxi is not the issue, leaving you alone to wait for it is.

As one of the responders above says, if you are interested, call him. You'll figure out quickly if he is interested or not. If not, move on. Life is to short.

[NoDating]

This is actually a complicated issue that has been brought about by the advent of internet dating and we need some new terminology to go with the new technology.

The question really comes from what is a date? I would say that this was not if fact a date, but a NoDate. Before all the new technology people met at social functions, got to know each other, and when someone felt a spark for another person asked her out on a date. People might know each other for weeks or even months before actually going on a date, so there is a period when two people are getting to know one another before they ever have that "first date".

When you find someone on the internet and decide to meet, you are not saying, "Wow you are someone I would really like to date". You are actually saying, "I would like to meet you to see if you are someone I would like to date"
This is why I refer to this as a NoDate rather than a Date. If you really think of this as a "Date" then you are dating someone to determine if you want to date him/her and that really doesn't make much sense and is certainly not romantic.

The real reason why there is an issue with "who pays the bill" is the simple fact that this is not a traditional date where both people already know and have an attraction to each other. I very much agree with OhRick that communication is key. The simplest solution is to agree before you meet who is paying for what so you don't need to worry about it. It would be even better if you both where cognizant of the fact that you don't even know each other yet, so its not rally a date. If you both like each other then later, you might actually go on a real romantic date.

The real problem with internet dating is that you are trying to force romance to happen. I honestly believe that the best way to find romance is to go to social events and get to know people without trying to force things. I have hosted many events and parties and I have found that the best relationships happened when people took the time to get to know each other at social events and found a mutual attraction BEFORE they ever started dating.

Last Fall I attended a wedding of two such people. Everyone who knows them knows how right they are for each other. They met because they were both going to a weekly poetry open mic and they got to know each other there before they ever went on that first date.

[Vegas Gary]

Ditto, Moxie: "But, as a side note, a $28 tab and he doewn't offer to pay the whole thing??"

I tend to be the serial online dater and I have come to terms that if I am going on that "preliminary first time meeting its not a date but it is face to face meeting," then I have come to terms with the fact that I am going to pick up the check. Picking up the check is part of the dating game. If guys don't want to pay for the entire check, I would suggest either going someplace very inexpensive, or doing something that doesn't cost money (like walking in the park).

[OhRick]

Trouble...

It's not archaic... it's a simple courtesy. UNLESS otherwise established beforehand it is completely expected and appropriate for the person extending the invitation to plan the occasion and pick up the tab. (Male or female.) That's equality.

This is exactly the kind of attitude and thought process that causes all of this confusing bullshit in the first place; do I open her door, pull out her seat, stand when she comes to the table, ask her to take one of those scrunchies from my bed post and pull her hair back, etc.

You take all of the fun out of courtship and being a gentleman (...or even a man) in your unisex world of gender neutrality.

These are simply dating niceties. Why are you so threatened?

Trouble, Get over some of these antiquated sexual political positions. Haven't you heard... women are being ladies again. Femininity is back (...in California, anyway!) Yes, it has been redefined a tad, but being a lady, is no longer a dirty word. Let a man be a man. (Encourage it, for God sake! You mentioned having sons.) Other than the implied attempt that asking you out is primarily to get you naked... it's not an evil plot. It's instinctive to protect and care for a lady, to walk on the street-side of the sidewalk to shelter you from a buggy splashing mud on you.

A man should always treat you as one, until you demonstrate you are not? Even then we should rise above that and remain courteous.

From some of the complaints I have read on this Blog and other's, regarding male behavior, it's become obvious that some women are the new men! (And you wonder why we treat you as such?) Do you really want that "kind" of equality for yourself and your daughters? Glass ceilings are one thing... a first date is a chance to show some gentility and style, a voyage of discovery with your best foot forward. A hunger to pull your panties off. Most men do not have the luxury of being "Hit-on" everyday, as women do. We have to instigate opportunities to have our way with you! Consequently, we pay, if able.

What little romance is left, nowadays, you want to turn in to a debate over who pays? This is your idea of an end-date experience. You must be a lot of fun?

That being said, it's all about your vagina. Do you think we ask you out to have long conversations about paying the bill, or to discuss the philosophy of Gloria Steinham, and Bella Abzug? I can hear you now speaking of women's rights, human rights, equality, evil men and social justice.

Sure, Baby! Whatever you say! Mmmm, Nice lips!

In reality, we are mentally undressing you, and wondering what those lips will feel like wrapped around our manhood, and all we actually hear is Blah, blah, blah! And you think we are jockeying for gender control? (Yeah right!) We want to get you naked as quickly as possible, and for as cheap as possible. I suppose, if your determined enough to pay and to also give it up, why am I tilting against that windmill?

Perhaps, I'm a dinosaur.

Moreover, women ask me out for the same reasons I ask them. No problem! My acceptance is based on the same parameters as theirs would be, in return. And I never once thought... OMG, this is a power-play of some kind, how dare she try to control me? (Oh brother!) Of course, when a woman ask a man out, you know how it's going to end. (Now that's empowerment!) It's also inequality. When a man ask a woman out, there is no guarantee that it will end in conjugal bliss. When a woman ask a man out... barring something odd occurring... she's getting laid! Talk about control.

You think, way too much! Men are still trying not to get caught staring at your breast. That's about the extent of our gender politics. Care for another drink?

I invite male friends to dinner, as well! While some offer to pay with the same testosterone driven urge as you have shown, I always say... you're my guest, this is on me, next time you can cover it! We laugh about it because we are thinking of times with women who think as you do! It's such a joke!

I like you Trouble. I've enjoyed many of your contributions and agreed with many. But your assertions here are the same (Overly) feminist BS, that started all of this confusion in the first place. You sound like the angry bra-burners of the early 70's. (Nobody asked these woman out.) Though all of those bouncy, nipply tops were sure appreciated, even if I had to carry my books in front of my jeans for years!

Do you honestly believe that men think about ANY of this gender neutral crap, which you just spouted?

Sounds like you've found a thoughtful and considerate man, congratulations! (The sex must be good!)

Then again, we are speaking of a first "Date" ...a first impression. Not the rain-gutter cleaning stage.

If you had spouted any of this gender politics BS, to me... there would not be a second date, unless I wanted to shut that mouth up the old fashioned way.

There are plenty of vaginafied men out there for you to play this card on. Just because I am taking responsibility for the first date, doesn't mean I'm trying to control you.

That's what pony-tails are for! :)

[trouble]

~~~This is exactly the kind of attitude and thought process that causes all of this confusing bullshit in the first place; do I open her door, pull out her seat, stand when she comes to the table, ask her to take one of those scrunchies from my bed post and pull her hair back, etc.

You take all of the fun out of courtship and being a gentleman (...or even a man) in your unisex world of gender neutrality.

These are simply dating niceties. Why are you so threatened?

Trouble, Get over some of these antiquated sexual political positions. Haven't you heard... women are being ladies again. Femininity is back (...in California, anyway!) Yes, it has been redefined a tad, but being a lady, is no longer a dirty word. Let a man be a man. (Encourage it, for God sake! You mentioned having sons.) Other than the implied attempt that asking you out is primarily to get you naked... it's not an evil plot. It's instinctive to protect and care for a lady, to walk on the street-side of the sidewalk to shelter you from a buggy splashing mud on you.

A man should always treat you as one, until you demonstrate you are not? Even then we should rise above that and remain courteous.~~~

My boyfriend opens the door for me, or sometimes, if I get to the door first, I open it for him. He does a lot of chivalrous things. However, from the first date, I offered to pay half (and he took me up on it). I have no problems with him doing so, I see no reason why he should have to pay when I make more money. It's as simple as that. I often pay for friends, too, if there is an income gap there.

For the record, it is just easier for me to offer to pay. I don't make a fuss about it, and I don't discount a guy from consideration, either way. But, I'm also not one of the women on here who offers to pay and then resents or dismisses the guy for taking me up on that offer.

I guess, to me at least, paying for half of the date just seems fair.

There are many ways to be chivalrous, I don't see men as a paycheck or a way to pay for the activities I want to do. If I want to do something specific that is rather pricey, I will pay for it. If he wants to do something specific, he should pay for it.

It actually works out rather well for both of us.

[trouble]

I do think it is hypocritical for women, however, to expect an equal playing field everywhere but in their romantic life. I find that it is hardly fair to men.

[bostonkev]

If a woman offers to pay or leave the tip then I have no trouble accepting

[OhRick]

... as it should be!

In your case, Trouble, you have, obviously, come to terms with your arrangements. Acceptance is mutual... it works for both... that's the whole ideal. And achievable when open and communicative!

I always welcome consideration in any form (...without agenda.) Just as a woman doesn't want to feel "Bought" by an expensive evening, nor, do I wish to illicit that feeling in her. I communicate and joke about the activity, and do my best to put my guest at ease. To anticipate a womans safety, comfort and concerns, is a gentleman's calling. Courtesy, not a patriarchal stance.

Still, since I have the means, I may wish to do something more lavish and extravagant, for my personal edification, as much for the company I desire to share it with (...no matter the eventual outcome.) I'm social that way!

I would no more "expect" anything in return, other than a desire to, hopefully, see each other again. I would hope that any quid-pro-quo would be out of her own mutual desire, my own attempts at seduction, and never from obligation. Men can't read your mind, and it takes time to analyze motivation.

No, for a man it's never "Fair" just how it is.

As a man whose well off, well educated, and well... well, let's say well rounded. As such, there are a myriad of reasons I could find suspicion towards the women in my life, as to their motivation towards me. The scale I operate within is well beyond the Starbucks scenario, mentioned here. Though, I have employed it as an initial filter.

Except for business, I don't invite women to join me unless I desire them on some level. The rest is... "The Dance." (When I dance, I lead.) But, even then, the man is still frame to the woman.

As long as men have to "jump through hoops" to have our way with you, nothing is truly fair to us? Since you possess that, which we covet... an imbalance will always exist. (One, that will forever be your trump card, so play it wisely!)

Because women are individually unique in their outlooks and behavior, and men are fairly basic creatures... we're hungry... we're horny... we're thirsty! (In ever changing order.) We're really not, too difficult to please.

Towards a woman, we have to constantly measure how far we are willing to go, to accomplish that means. Women usually know this and the smarter ones use it as a means to keep the man interested and eventually to see her as more than the initial prey he was pursuing.

In a perfect world, we would share the tab... share our bodies... make the same income... have the same opportunities... everything nice, balanced and predictable. Sounds interesting, though, rather boring.

If it were that easy, we would hardly need each other for true companionship and intimacy. But, we do!

So, the rules are... as we make them.

Until that day... when I ask a lady to join me in social frivolity, and until she tells me - upon invitation - that she expects to share the expense of the occasion beforehand... then I will gladly assume responsibility for the merriment. And deflect any attempts, after the fact, at contribution. But, as previously mentioned, I assert my invitation with clarity and detail, so as to diffuse any issues of doubt within my guest.

To put a smile on your face (...and to illicit a few deep guttural moans) would be optimal. (The Deli scene, in "When Harry met Sally" comes to mind!) Hopefully, genuine in expression.

Yes, chivalry can and should take many forms, but it starts, upon first encounter, and should not be viewed politically.

Of course, with all my dubious experience and occasional originality with women... apparently, the sexiest thing I have ever done... were the dishes, laundry, or the floors (...while married.)

Chivalrous? No, necessity! And with a definite agenda in mind! :)

[OhRick]

Anonymous Redhead…

Thank you, and I agree with your take!

As you suggest, the circle of intimacy is one that should be defended against all outsiders, no matter how close? The lack of friendship, as strong as love, a predictor of an all too common statistical outcome.

Unfortunately, this scenario is often realized, too late!

Happy St. Paddy's Day... my Red Irish Rose!

[trouble]

I'll tell you, Rick, the man looked pretty damn sexy up on a ladder cleaning my gutters for me. ;)

It makes me want to cook him more dinners, give him more sexually gratifying moments...I think that what we refer to as chivalry is simply consideration, and it should occur on both sides. Neither side should be doing all the giving, or all the taking. Financially, or otherwise.

[screwrules]

Why so many rules? As a woman, and I've been out on a few dates in my time, lol. Dont have any expectations, usually when the guy pays with a credit card, I always at least make an offer by going for my wallet. Most will tell me dont pay, and some have let me. If I like the guy, regardless of me paying or not, I still will like him in the end. To the girl that says if he makes her pay he's a cheap skate? Thats some dumb BS. SO, what if you are the type that orders like a million things, and just picks at it? So, if he takes you to McDonalds and pays you'll still like him? Use your head lady. Youre the one that looks nutso because you are going to immediately judge someone?

[OhRick]

Agreed! Spoken as a woman who understands.

The issue is... SHOULD vs. WANT.

No one should have to do anything, but we all must, on occasion. It's those "wants to" that really turn us on, as you suggest. And from both sexes.

I'll bet he did he did look sexy! As would you in a short skirt or shift performing the same chore? But, that's just from a mans point of view.

We men do respond to affection training!

In my younger married days (when the kids were little) we owned a vacation cabin in the nearby mountains. Logs had to be split for the fireplace, and we weren't there long before my wife, would pull off my shirt and send me out back to swing that Axe. There was a large kitchen window where she would set up and do this seductive grind on the edge of the counter. While I was swinging away... she was rubbing off a few! It was so sensually distracting! Had to be careful with that Axe! :)

To this day, it remains one of my most erotic memories.

Yes, I get it!

[TT]

I believe there are no rules as it pertains to who pay, etc.

Sometimes when I speak to my friends and this topic comes up I get frustrated because my advice has always been "go with the flow".

My paying is not an indicator that I like her, I'm just old fashioned. It's just who I am, it's not about her. Hopefully, there 's been some sort of spark...

By the way, my strategy to avoid the weirdness around the bill situation is this; as dinner comes near the end, let's say desserts have arrived, I excuse myself, find the server, get the bill, pay it.. done. Go back to the table, finish desserts and whisper sweet nothings in her ear (ok, I just threw that in there to see if you were still reading). Then I'll say let' go, she'll say what about the bill, I'll say it's taken care of. Very casual and no goofiness. Very classy I am (boxed wine my dear..)

Once I actually convinced a girl who i was out with for about the third time that we were going to leave a very nice place without paying the bill (of course I already had). Her reaction was priceless...and we left. THAT was a fun night.