Kicking Him While He's Down

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Name: AmyRose | Location: New York ,  New York  |Question: So, there has been alot on here about financial affairs lately. Recently, I gave this guy a third chance..long story short, divorced, w a child, really intelligent, and not really hot, but could grow on you (also a seriously great kisser :..No mox, didnt go e way w with him! Anyway,yes I was probably in reality, "settling", but he had been persistant and was a friend of a friends. Even the fact that he is a self claimed republican was not even the dealbreaker..it was this: every date we went out on, he constantly complained about how broke he was. He had once been very succesful and his ex wiped him out in the divorce and the business he had started on his own was failing. Our last date I had offered to treat, but he took full advantage, and it made me really uneasy. In the end I bailed on him and basically told him that he was a mess and should focus his time on his finances since he had a child to take care of and should stop trying to date. Was I too harsh on this guy?  |Age: 38

I think honesty is a great thing, but not when it includes shaming someone. I understand why you were turned off and it's great that you gave the guy a chance. But regardless of how annoyed you are, I think telling someone he's a mess and needs to get his finances in order is extremely hash. We're not talking about  a guy who was rude to you or was hurtful. He was simply getting back into the dating pool and a little rusty. And, yes, he apparently had some issues with his finances. But does that make him a bad person with shady intentions? I don't think so.

If it made you uneasy to treat and pay for that date, then you shouldn't have offered. This guy was broke and yet he was still taking you out. Since he was a friend of a friend's , he probably assumed you knew the dirt on him. Maybe he just wanted to be upfront? Maybe he didn't want you hearing certain things from anyone but him? He probably assumed you already knew about his failing business and ex wife that cleaned  him out.

I''m not saying that you were wrong to cut your losses. I just don't think you had to kick the guy while he was already down. It really wasn't your place to lecture him. A simple "Thanks but I don't think this will workout" would have sufficed. We all say we want to know why we're being dumped but there are just certain things that are too delicate to address to someone, especially when you barely know them. If someone I dated 3 times chose to tell me he felt my finances were out of place, I'd thank God he dumped me because that takes a certain level of arrogance.

YOUR THOUGHTS?

Comments

[A Tree in the Forest]

Since you summarized your concluding conversation for this post, I think whether it was harsh or not depends on how tactful you were with your actual remarks. If done tactfully, I, for one, would have appreciated your comments because they would help me understand why I was being dumped (as Moxie pointed out) and also provide insight that I could use to improve my chances on future dates with other women. In this case, "don't *complain* about my financial state".

What is more telling here, though, is your attitude. You were willing to "settle" for this guy as long as he was footing your bill, but the first time it was on you to reciprocate and "invest" in the relationship (for which you should be commended) he was no longer worth your time. Seems to me no matter how harsh your comments might have been, you did him a favor in the long run.

[Neil]

A bit harsh, I agree it depends on the way she said it, but he was asking for it.

Personally, I'm back in school and can no longer afford to date in a city as expensive as D.C., so I don't...no biggie. As Nirvana put it, "I'm so horny, that's okay, my will is good." :-)

[wilie]

It's fine to tell him why you don't want to see him any more, but I doubt he appreciated your gratuitous advice not to date. Who are you to tell someone they shouldn't date?

[trouble]

It was more harsh than I would ever be. On the other hand, maybe he will learn from it to keep his mouth shut about how poor he is. That would make me run for the hills, and I'm a single mom with two kids...

[wilie]

One more thing. Your initial description of him contained too positive things about him - very intelligent and a great kisser, and one negative thing - "not really hot". You then said that this meant you were "settling." Sounds to me like the "not really hot" aspect was the real problem. I'm guessing his finances would not have been a concern if he was hot.

[LuckiLittleLatina]

I think that it is very tacky for anyone to talk about money. It is a sensitive subject for most people as we would all like to have more than we do. Whether you have a little or a lot...discussing it is only going to do one of two things. 1)You will embarass the other person by making them feel poor. -or- 2)You will embarass yourself by looking like a loser who can't support a decent lifestyle.

I constantly tell people who are trying to date to do it inexpensively. Why do you have to go to a restaurant? Why can't you pack a picnic? I don't understand why guys can't get this. Don't go out for drinks, they are charging you an arm and a leg. Grab an decent bottle of wine at the liquor store and go watch a sunset.

I love guys who can show me a good time with little or no money at all. Because it shows me that when the relationship gets past the honeymoon stage, we will still have fun just being us.

I think that she was right to give him honest and specific feedback about why his forthcoming banter turned her off. There are so many times that I wish I could call a guy up and asked him what I did wrong. Feedback only helps us to do better. She was wrong to call him a mess though. He is not a mess. He is only unaware of how tacky he is being. This is a sixth sense that women take for granted and we should be sensitive to the fact that they honestly don't have a damn clue.

[DD]

In a way I don't think it was too harsh since she spoke her honest thoughts. I agree with her because men should not ask a woman out if they can't afford it. Yes every one wants companionship but if you can't afford the game, you don't play it. If he was up front on date 1 & said he would like to get to know her but can't afford to date the way he'd like, she would have a choice as to how to proceed if at all. I've been in that situation several times and I also did not appreciate hearing about the mans financial troubles every time we went out nor do I consider my place or his a dating destination for a new relationship. He's a grown man and should know there is some dating ettiquette.
I have been known to be brutely honest at times & I truly believe that some people don't hear things when you try so hard to sugar coat it.
I don't feel any one is responsible for any one elses feelings and it didn't sound to me that she went out of her way to hurt him. If his feelings were hurt then what he heard from her was a truth he was trying not to own.

[Jack]

DD, she chose to treat. Men should not ask women out if they can't "afford" it? What century are you living in? Women basically make as much as men do now. You know, equality and all that. So the man does not have the sole responsibility anymore.

Truth is AmyRose, you did him a favor. Since you're 38, he probably wasn't looking for a quick fuck from you, and he was looking for a real relationship. Since you seem to be greedy, unsympathetic, and a bit demeaning (with the "settling" comment), he is definitely better off without you in a relationship.

too bad. Move on. NEXT!!!!!!

stay home (to BOTH OF YOU!!!!)

[Lindygirl]

He brought up the subject of money in the first place by grousing about it on a date with a new person, and being ungracious. Maybe he will learn to keep it to himself until it's a more appropriate time to bring up such a subject.

[AmyRose]

Talking about money, not having it, how much you make, your investments, is a COMPLETE turn-off. I think I called him a mess because he called me a mess, saying I was insecure about my body since I didn't dress like a whore. I think he was trying to detract from his shortcoming and blindsight me. I wasal actually very tactful and said it to him more like a concerned friend than a scolding bitch. I actually found out the other night that he hasn't paid rent in months and actually asked my "friend" to borrow $. I might be arrogant, but obviously my gut led me in the right direction. I have already done the whole "sugar mama" for some hot guy and not so hot thing in my 20's. At my age, I know better, and for a guy in his 40's he should as well.

[trouble]

Whoa, Jack. The guy has issues. No self-respecting guy goes on dates and talks about how broke he is. If he doesn't have a lot of money, he asks a woman out to do cheap but fun activities. His behavior was passive-aggressive. I don't blame her for not wanting to see him.

It's not about who pays. My boyfriend and I mostly split 50/50, he's starting a company and I know he's tight for cash. A lot of times, a date is eating a meal at one of our houses and just hanging out, exactly what we did yesterday. He came over for lunch and we watched movies, and he did a little work on a proposal that he has to turn in today. Not super romantic, but I'm happy just to spend time with him because he's just that great.

This guy could easily have packed a picnic for $10 or less, taken her to a park, and never said a word about money. It shows a serious lack of class/tact to go there, financially speaking.

A smart girl will realize that cash may be tight for a guy without him saying much about it, at all, and respond accordingly. If she's all about the money (which I don't think the OP is), she will move on. Otherwise, she will choose to date frugally.

I think the guy was tacky as hell in how he handled this situation, and on some level, I kind of applaud the OP for being candid with him about a behavior that is going to turn most women off. I just think she went a little too far in giving him the advice she did about future dating, although, if he really is that strapped for cash, maybe he should take some time off to get his finances in order.

[the critic]

Oh wow - good one! I give the girl credit for thinking about it. Initially I would say yes - telling someone they "need to get their shit together" when you are dumping them is harsh. But I think I know people like this guy, and they talk about their problems all the time and complain all the time . . . meanwhile they do so in order to express their victimhood, when 90% of the time they brought it on themselves. Their dialogue is just an attempt to, over and over, convince themselves that they don't need to change their foolish ways and fix what is wrong with them. Human nature. So more likely than not, this guy probably totally blew off whatever this girl said anyway, and is now telling himself that her decision to dump him has nothing to do with his lameness and everything to do with her being a selfish bitch.

[Jack]

I wasn't saying the guy was in the right or that the OP should continue to see him - I was saying that what seemed like dumping him in a mean and condescending way was unwarranted.

I also took issue with the way AmyRose described him in the first place. She says she was "settling", but says he is very intelligent and a great kisser. Well, why were you settling, then? Because he was, as you describe, "not really hot"? You are 38 YEARS OLD. You really look down on a guy because he is "not really hot"? I mean, I expect that attitude from some 22 year old girls, not from a 38 year old woman. It's lame and shallow. And I can almost be that you are, wait for it, "not really hot".

[Jack]

that last sentence should be "bet" not "be"

[AmyRose]

See, this is the hating behavior towards older woman that many of this sites posts have talked about. Woman blame each other, but its the men that perpetuate. The bitter, self-hating men, that deep down hate women because they call them out on thier b.s and don't think women over the age of 35 deserve to have a sense of entitlement or self worth, that were all cougars and vapid shopping whores and only here to appease your neediness and your sexual misnomers. Men like you help to perpetuate that desperate marriage and baby train that woman of this generation have evolved beyond. Any relationship is built on trust and communication. He didnt communicate to me that he was broke and wanted to leech off me. End of story. If he was hot I would have just done what a guy would have,used him for sex and dumped him. But apparently I'm not that shallow.

[Crotch Rocket]

I agree with others that telling him he shouldn't date until he has his shit together is harsh, but IMHO he asked for it by constantly complaining about how broke he was. That's just stupid. Even if you're broke, there are cheaper dates you can do or polite excuses why you can't go to expensive places or need to spend a few nights in.

I am, however, disturbed by the OP saying she was "settling" purely because the guy was merely "not really hot", especially after give a long list of all his good qualities. That attitude says a lot more about you than it does him, and he's lucky to be rid of you.

[Jack]

No, AmyRose, you ARE that shallow. By saying that if the guy was "hot" you would have slept with him, you are the epitome of shallow. I'm not seeing the compassion or other positive qualities that guys look for in a relationship in you. AT ALL.

[AmyRose]

Jack- This is just getting petty and pointless. I am sure face to face you would never have the balls to lash out like that at a woman. Boys..if you were seeing someone that on a scale of 1-10 was about a 2.5, when other factors indicated that they were a needy mess,you would cast them aside as well. Don't even try to tell me otherwise. The only reason this guy was persistant was because he was looking for someone to pay his bar tab and he continously harped on my insecurities, breaking me down so I wouldnt see past mine to view his. He completely worked the guilt factor, I did't want to be that shallow girl that couldnt see past the exterior. I HAVE gone down that road before, I dated someone not conventionally attractive for 8 YEARS and all of my friends told me "you can do better than that" and I thought they were shallow bitches, and I saw past that. The "settling" guy,underneath, it all, he was a LOSER, and when it came down to it, not good for me. As for my comment Jack, it was sarcasm. I get the feeling your the guy that lets every attractive girl step all over you and end up broke and alone on a weekly basis. It is evident that your not actually a real new yorker and most likely from an outer borough, other than brooklyn, or lower queens.

[dusktilldawn]

It sucks that his finances aren't in order. But hey he is trying. should this detour you from dating him. Go to events that don't cost much or are free and save the big dinner and events for special occasions. More than that you need to really consider if you want to be with this person knowing all their shit beforehand is great. Imagine all those people who got married to someone who kept all that info top secret.

[Lydia]

I think the real issue here is that this guy wore his problems on his sleeve. It's one thing to have financial problems and have a less expensive evening but, this guy chose to dump on her (not cool). He then calls her names (who needs that). He obviously wasn't ready to date and she shouldn't be his shrink (especially not on the third date). It's one thing to be supportive and understanding and quite another to be expected to be the problem fixer of someone you hardly know.

Remember, whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

[Lydia]

I think the real issue here is that this guy wore his problems on his sleeve. It's one thing to have financial problems and have a less expensive evening but, this guy chose to dump on her (not cool). He then calls her names (who needs that). He obviously wasn't ready to date and she shouldn't be his shrink (especially not on the third date). It's one thing to be supportive and understanding and quite another to be expected to be the problem fixer of someone you hardly know.

Remember, whatever doesn't kill us makes us stronger.