Love is a Battlefield

Name: Rob Y. |Location: Brooklyn , NY |Question: Dear Moxie;

I'm having trouble with all the modern rules of behavior in the dating scene. With all these books and web sites, there seem to be a thousand codes of conduct and I keep stepping on land-mines. I'm confused about what's appropriate and what isn't anymore. Let me give you three examples of what I mean.

1) I met a girl at party recently who I'd seen before at a meet-up. We talked for a while but were interrupted before I could ask for her number. I didn't want to lurk around her all night so I mingled for a while and hoped to find her later but she left before I got the chance to ask her number. But I was able to e-mail her using the meet-up group we're both in. I never heard back from her. When I discussed this with a female friend of mine, I was told that e-mailing her was "creepy" behavior and that she's be scared if someone did that to her. I had no idea I was doing something spooky.

Ask your friend how she'd feel if the guy who contacted her through meetup was attractive or someone she found attractive. She'd change her tune  right quick. You did nothing wrong. That's the whole reason why Meetup has that little envelope icon. Your friend sounds a bit unpleasant. Maybe re-think that friendship. Her job is to support you, not make you feel worse about yourself. In the future, though, if the woman was interested she wouldn't have let you and she be interrupted in the first place. She would have made sure to re-connect with you eventually.

2) I made friends with a woman in the building I work in. We got along fine. We joked (nothing sexual, just silly funny) and I listened to her complaints about her job. One day I asked her out and she said she wasn't interested. Fine. No problem. But I made the mistake of still trying to be her friend. I didn't think I should start ignoring her just because she didn't want to date. I didn't ask her out again but I was still friendly. (Not flirty, just innocently friendly.) Her attitude toward me had changed, though. She got very angry and said my behavior was not appropriate and that I wasn't respecting her rejection and that I should stay away from her. Again, I had no idea I was being inappropriate.

You weren't being inappropriate. She just felt uncomfortable. The nicer you are, the more she's reminded that she wasn't interested and she feels guilty. But, in the future, do not make yourself the doormat who listens to a woman kvetch. That's girl friend territory. That's a reason why many men get put in the friend zone. Behave like a girl friend and she'll see you like a girl friend.

3) I exchanged a few e-mails and one phone call with a woman I'd met over the Internet. After the previous experiences I mentioned, I didn't want to be accused of being inappropriate again so I let a few days go by without contacting her again. But I received two angry E-mails back , telling me that w
e'd made a "connection" (which I hadn't felt) and then I "just disappeared". Again, I seem to have stepped on a land mine I didn't see coming.

Uh...avoid her. I mean, don't just disappear, but cut things off now. That kind of response from her indicates that she's getting attached a little too quickly. Anger is not an emotion that a total stranger should be able to illicit in someone.

I suppose I'm a bit naive. How does a person know what's normal and appropriate anymore?
 
|Age: 43

Comments

[JET]

"But, in the future, do not make yourself the doormat who listens to a woman kvetch. That's girl friend territory. That's a reason why many men get put in the friend zone. Behave like a girl friend and she'll see you like a girl friend."

I have to disagree with this. One of the things I look for in a guy is someone I can talk to about ANYTHING, who can be my best friend. Add sex to that and what more can you ask for?

There have definitely been guy friends who I didn't really notice as guys until I had that emotional closeness with them, and then I saw them in a whole different way. That doesn't happen very often, though.

[VJ]

You know Rob, I think part of the problem is that you were never actually 'dating' any of these women. Things had not progressed that far. And therein lies a tale. (This is a bit longish now).

I think Moxie's take is correct in these instances, but it does seem like you're having problems with technology too. With the interpretation of (mostly) various forms of non verbal communication. Gal # 2 (where you work) probably can be chalked up to many things, but it's the only one you actually met face to face. I think it's entirely possible that she wrote you off long before you ever listened to her 'kvetch', and she was annoyed that you even bothered to ask!

I've got theories about this, natch. Much of our attraction is indeed happening in the first milliseconds after you meet someone. They're automatically put in the friends category or the 'possible romantic hunk/darling' set in someone's mind. And this is based on criteria that are culturally set as well as deeply personal individual biases. Big hips here, big hands there. Blonds over brunettes. Jocks over nerds. Geeks vs Freaks. But all of it based on a split second assessment on some sort of 'attractiveness scale'.

Sure you can be friendly with almost everyone, but to save time, most people, strangely enough, are only wasting time and much effort on those that are most attractive to them. (At least in the social arena where dating might progress). Ergo you're only annoying the crap out of them if you're 'not it' and you're seen as keeping them from 'finding it'.

Now it makes no damn difference if they (male or female) might be seen 9 mo later now Married to Cousin 'It' and pushing a stroller filled with the horrors of this semi-successful union, freakish though the entire world might agree about the eventual outcome. (I'm exaggerating here for effect, most babies are cute...for awhile!) It makes no difference if they might come to regret their decision to reject your attentions some years hence. (It may have once, but this is also largely a fantasy played out in middle age and above).

So it's the split second largely Visual assessment that rule our romantic lives. Why? Well it's almost always been so, but it's more so today, due to the overweening influence of the most culturally significant and omnipresent force in all our lives. The TV. It's been a revolution, and it's almost devoid of ugly people. Even the villains on TV look Good. They stopped making really 'evil looking villains' well almost as far back as the 1930's & 40's in films. Almost certainly by the 1950's say. Everyday in the streets you can run into 'interesting looking' people. In the Media? They're all pretty, and getting more so by the hour, by necessity somehow. Everyone needs to be branded as 'attractive', or else they do not show up on the tube.

Which is not to say or imagine that you're less than handsome guy. Some people are an acquired taste. Some people just don't make a good visual impression right away. It's the power of their character, and their other fine traits that may make them truly an attractive person. Barack Obama is a bit strange & unconventional looking. But the character of his rhetoric and his Voice, and the ideals & ideas he expresses with it that makes him a stellar candidate and an attractive man.

Let's put this all altogether now. I was thinking of all this driving down the road listening to the radio play Billie Holiday: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billie_Holiday]. I've always loved her singing, it's classical Jazz & Blues. Now I know enough to know almost exactly when the session was recorded, (early to mid 1930's), and even who was playing on the session, (Teddy Wilson) just by the sound of it. It was magical. To this day, though she'll soon be dead 50 years, no one sounds like her, and no one comes even close for what she could do with a song. And people loved her for it. They could not get enough of her, though she barely recorded or performed for chunks of her life due to persistent problems with drug abuse & abusive BF's & husbands. There are dozens of pictures of her, and in each one you can see a different character. If it was early enough or she was clean & sober enough, she looked almost pretty, although perhaps not in a conventional sense. It was her voice and her tremendous talent that drew people to her. Even to this day: [http://www.cmgww.com/music/holiday/] and from around the world: [http://www.billieholiday.be/].

Now what I'm going to tell you is going to sound fantastic, but it's true nevertheless. Some people have met and married Just because of being attracted to the quality of their beloveds voice. Their singing alone, along with their talent or character. It was attractive enough to at least start things rolling.

Billie Holiday passing you on the street some 50 or 60 years ago would not cause any heads to turn, if you did not recognize her. She was world famous though for being able to bring people to tears with the power and truth & beauty of her singing and the way she interpreted songs. And you can still hear that some 75 years on. Months from her untimely death at 44, she still had it, even if she was only a shell of her former self.

So here's the wrap: Abe Lincoln? A deeply unconventionally attractive man. Visually? No not really, and he knew this and recognized it all his life. Was mocked for it all his life. It was the power of his voice and the deep conviction of his ideas that held people entranced. His dark country humor and yet good temper that made fast friends.

So we need more humans in the mix. More OF humans in it too. Nothing happens much with the electrons until the humans meet & connect. Unfortunately most of this is now all confined to one part of the human spectrum of imagination, talents and achievements. You're either 'hot' or you're not. Most people as they age unfortunately they get 'less' hot. Certainly visually. And this is seemingly all that matters today, and there's more the pity in that. They'd miss out on that skinny forlorn & abused gal from Baltimore who lived the blues & loved Louie Armstrong and who grew up to become a Jazz legend inside of a few years after hitting NYC. They'd miss out on another skinny strange kid from the deep south who played piano like a dream, and was there to befriend her and play with her, Teddy Wilson.

None of this is 'new', and if you think about it, many other people find certain voices 'sexy' or 'attractive', they just normally let their visual sense 'over-rule' their other senses. This is silly. We need all of us to be human, and to become fully functioning adults. There's just so many actors and actresses the market can bear. The rest of us are distressingly about average mostly. And somehow we're always wanting to trade up for the flashier looking model. I'm here to tell you that you can't tell a book by its cover, and you'll never be able to tell what's under the hood until your try the engine yourself.

Now what was the question again? Cheers & Good Luck! 'VJ'

VJ - how about the haunting "Porgy and Bess" CD by Miles Davis. I find that music haunting but spectacular. I have never listened to Billie Holiday so I will have to check her out.

As to attractiveness there are times when people can totally annoy us and we find them arrogant and overbearing and then you catch them in a vulnerable instance and your whole opinion changes and you suddenly find them attractive. I do agree with you for the most part we all instantly find someone attractive or not but in some rare instances people can grow on us over time. With my husband and I the attraction was at FIRST GLANCE and never wavered.

To the original poster write your three examples off as strokes of bad luck, bad timing or whatever and just put them behind and move on. Men and Women both are complex creatures (even though men think they are simple) and truly finding someone you can honestly connect with is precious and doesn't happen too often. You can have sex with lots of different people but to truly make that connection that most crave is rare but don't give up hope. Also, do not let a few bad experiences make you bitter as men can get just as bitter as women after bad experiences. Have a Happy 4th!

[beenthere]

I don't think Rob is doing anything wrong.

Its three women. Three out of millions.

I don't think Rob is breaking rules. I think he should just do what feels right to him. Which is what we should all do. Just don't overanalyze things too much.

Dating and even getting the date in the first place is about timing as well as attraction and first impressions. The timing was definately off on the meetup woman and he couldn't recapture it over email. The second woman, she just wasn't interested. The third situation sounds like a potential wackjob.

Rob should just keep at it. Keep asking women out and looking for opportunies and follow your instincts. That's what I do because I know if one guy isn't interested in its only a matter of time before I find a guy who is interested.

[trouble]

Yeah, I don't see any rule-breaking, either, and I've done a lot of technologically-based dating. I just think you've had a string of bad luck. It happens sometimes, you hit a tree with nothing but bad apples on it.

Move on to another tree and don't let it get you down.

[An]

The second one... I never had someone who rejected me to become later very angry, although I stayed friends with many of them. If someone opens up he/she is vulnerable enough already, why hurt more? It sounds as if something was not mentioned in the story, something what went completely wrong. "Just innocently friendly" does not explain the anger.