Things That Make Men Run - Baggage

Name: FlutterBy | Location: Brooklyn , NY |Question: I'd like some feedback on the best way to talk to a guy that I need to take things slowly; as far as a physical relationship is concerned. I am not in a position to do so but in the past it hasn't gone so well.

I had this conversation with the last guy I was interested in early on because when things start getting more physical than I can emotionally handle I think it is important to keep who I'm involved with informed so they don't think it is them that is "turning me off." I've had some bad and scary experiences with guys in the past, and I need to take my time feeling comfortable/trusting a new person in this way.

This guy didn't have much to say about what I told him and it took me a while to realize that he was not just respecting my boundaries but actually lost interest but things had cooled off because I had "too much baggage." (his words when we split up after a couple of months) I realize a big part of it is this particular guy but I would also like any input or pointers on how to get the idea across to future love interests  most effectively. |Age: 35

Well, you have to understand something. Men don't want to hear about your scary past experiences with other men. For one, they kind of don't care. For two, it just puts pressure on them and makes you appear damaged. You can express your desire to take things slow and hold off on getting physical, but you don't need to accompany that with tales from relationships past. Save that information for when you have a commitment from the guy and you know he's invested. Unloading all that stuff too soon and you'll turn him off. He'll sense drama and bail.

Judging by your writing style, I'm going to guess that you're a little too "in your head" about this. I had a hard time following this letter because of all the run on sentences. When I read things like this, I get the sense that the writer doesn't have a lot of experience communicating to and with other people.  You're writing the way you think.  If you want to have this conversation with a guy, I'd suggest practicing it on a friend. Get used to saying it and learn to say  it with confidence. I don't hear confidence in your letter. I hear anxiety. If you're anxious and nervous about it, then the guy will be, too. You can not over-think all this. That's the other sense I get from your writing. Your sentences go in a circular motion without any concern for cohesiveness. To be frank, you sound a tad bit nutty. Or at the very least overly-anxious. Those are two things that will cause men to run.   

Everybody has baggage. You can not expect that your baggage will get you more consideration. When you go in to a relationship with that sense of entitlement then you develop high expectations. Expectations that will inevitably not be met.

YOUR THOUGHTS?

Follow Moxie on Twitter. http://twitter.com/Moxieinthecity  I recently posted links to photos of past loves, friends and people often mentioned here. Plus I post daily tips and advice.

Friend request me on Facebook - moxieinthecity@aol.com

In celebration of my 2008: Simplicity Plan, I'm asking all of you to subscribe to this blog's feed.    See that FeedBlitz subscriber box up there in the upper left corner? Sign up. Thank you in advance! 

DATING QUESTIONS NEEDED FOR ADVICE COLUMN!-YOUR FEEDBACK WANTED!
Got a dating related question?  Want free advice from Moxie and dozens of other national and international singles? Ask Away. It's Free! Look for Moxie's response and feedback from other singles. (Responses take between 6-36 hours.) Ask Away - http://www.moxieinthecity.net/ask-email.php

Comments

[isa.how]

Flutterby,

I think it depends upon the man and his interest in you. Early in my dating history I had similar conversations with guys (to the one you had with your guy)because I needed to take things slow. NOT ONE guy bailed on me. In fact, I found them to be surprisingly patient and caring about the whole thing.

[Crotch Rocket]

I agree with Moxie; do _not_ unload your baggage on a new guy. If you need to talk to someone about it, you need a therapist, not a boyfriend. As a bonus, a therapist can help you with specific things to say to dates, how to reduce your obvious anxiety about the issue, and when it may eventually be safe to talk to the guy about your issues.

As far as what you _should_ say to a guy, I'd say keep it as vague as possible. Let him know that you are interested but want to take things slow so you can establish trust. It's not going to work every time, because there are cockteases who say the exact same thing, but you can mitigate that by offering to pay for some dates so he can see you're investing, not just taking advantage of him. Still, some guys are going to bail, and you need to accept that and be okay with it.

[Craig]

Moxie is right. Most guys don't care about your drama when they first meet you. They care about having good times with someone new - and yes that includes sex. Like it or not, sex is our primary motivator when we first meet a woman. Interest in romance comes later for many of us. Furthermore, most men aren't sexually hesitant due to some past relationship gone bad, so we can't relate to the need to take things slow for that reason. Some guys won't bail immediately, as was the case in isa.how's example above, but most will either bail or they'll be banging another chick while they wait you out if you're attractive enough to them to warrant the wait.

No one is saying "flutterby's" issues aren't important and legit. No one is saying she should change a thing either. Her needs are what they are. But she has to understand that it's going to be harder for her to find a guy due to her needs. Shes live in NYC where men have limitless options to chose from. Plenty of other women don't need to take it slow and are relatively drama-free. Why deal with a relative stranger's past baggage when you can just have a good time right away with someone more immediately comfortable with intimacy? Like Moxie said, men are willing to deal with issues that come up after a woman is our girlfriend, but when we first meet you? Not so much. Thus "flutterby" has to accept that her needs are going to make it harder to keep someone around because most guys are almost always going to choose the path of least resistence.

[silly]

"But most will either bail or they'll be banging another chick while they wait you out if you're attractive enough to them to warrant the wait." very true

[Walden]

I agree with Craig on this. If you are not emotionally ready for a physical relationship then please stay out of the dating pool. Guys date for fun, that includes sex or at least the possibility of it. By bringing this right out in the open you are telling guys that that option is not open to them. Since guys have many options don't be surprised when they don't want to hang around for when you are ready. This doesn't make them bad people. No one should be expected to follow your timetable before you are even a couple.

[Me]

I agree with almost everything said. There is really no need for you to tell a new guy all your past baggage.

You should be able to be open and honest, to a point, and if he can't handle waiting, would you really want to be with him anyway? I have found that most of the time men will respect your boundaries and not really question them, especially if they are truly interested.

[FLutterBy]

Hi folks
Thanks for the responses thus far... I do want to clarify that I did not describe in detail beyond "some bad experiences" when I talked to this guy, I wasn't looking to unload anything. I definitely don't want to be with someone who is not interested in waiting (which might not be that long if he is a sensitive, caring person!). It was part of the reason why I wanted to bring it up sooner rather than later so we could both cut our losses if we weren't on the same page. He failed to communicate that and I failed to pick up on the "clues" from his change in behavior.

[Kegs]

It's not just men either, I wouldn't want to start getting involved with a man who told me so early he had issues like that. I immediately ignore online profiles that hint that the man has issues or is bitter towards women because of some past experience. And there are quite a few who really come across badly in that way online.

CR is right, it sounds like therapy would be a better option for you than dating. If you can't emotionally handle getting physical, why put yourself through that by dating? You should try to heal yourself first, you need to take care of your own well being and get your head in the right place before being ready to date. It's not fair to burden it on your dates.

[Kegs]

Saying 'some bad experiences' whilst vague, leaves the mind open to consider all kinds of possibilities. Obviously none of which are good. I think people are saying you shouldn't even go that far. You can say that you just prefer to take things slow and get to know a person before taking things to the next physical level without mentioning anything about any 'bad' experience.

[talkingdoc]

Honestly Flutterby i am not buying it. You say you want to express to men your need to wait to become physical because you had 'bad and scary' past sexual experiences (c'mon, who hasn't). But what that tells me is that you have an agenda other than 'making sure they don't think you are turned off' by them (that's silly). Your agenda is you want the men to see you as someone who needs to be cared for so you can land a bf. It is manipulative and controlling (and as you can see here from the various male commenters it ain't gonna woik). And frankly, you are not going to draw in a guy capable of a healthy relationship that way.

You are a 35 year-old woman living in NYC! You don't need to be seen as fragile....because you aren't! Fluttergirl get a good shrink and focus on why you have the need to play this role, so you can finally feel good about what you have to offer a guy and stop depending on the "oh poor me look at what a tough past i have had...i need you to rescue me" card. My guess is that it has worked in the past for you and now it is a habit you find yourself repeating when attempting to relate to men. Well how did your past relationships work out for ya there? I suppose it will eventually work with another guy. But great, then you have a man that sees you as pathetic and needy and will not really take you seriously.

You have strengths to offer men. Stop falling back on the needy card. Its not working, its controlling, its a turn-off. Its time to take accountability for your happiness Flutts. Go talk to someone about this bad pattern of behavior you have fallen into and read books on codependence to get this under control. I know you will be showing off your new man in no time (who wants you because you are awesome). Good luck!

[Moxie]

"You say you want to express to
men your need to wait to become physical because you had 'bad and
scary' past sexual experiences (c'mon, who hasn't)."

I don't know what her issues are, but if she was date raped or molested then your comment is totally condescending. No, not everyone has dealt with those issues.

"Your agenda is you want the men to see you as someone who needs to be cared for so you can land a bf. "
Jesus. Please tell me you're not an actual doctor or psychiatrist. You suck.

[A Diva]

I feel you Flutterby as I too "take it slow" not b/c of some past trauma but simply b/c I know how emotionally attached I get when I add in sex and know better than to jump in too soon.

With that said, Craig is right on point, if I guy is really interested he will stick around (as long as he has some tail on the side). I personally don't really care about that piece of it. If some other woman is okay with casual sex from a guy I'm dating great! It saves me the hassle of having to hold him off and feeling rushed! So while he gets his sexual fix from her (or them) we are developing a great friendship! I am beautiful, a lot of fun so they usually hang around even without sex. Then, when I am feeling confident enough that they are good people and safe to get intimate with, I kick things up to the next level!

You have to be realistic. Men seem to really really really need sex and as I have read here so many times, they are not going to suffer through celibacy for you, so my suggestion is to date multiple guys without demanding exclusivity and then when you are ready to go there physically, let the lucky man know and get your groove on ;-)

Good luck Diva!

[isa.how]

I agree with Mox 100%. Even if someone has talked about these issues, the impact of the experience doesn't just disappear. If TalkingDoc is a therapist, I doubt that he/she has any patients that haven't sued them for horrible behavior.

[JET]

It's fine to tell a man that you want to take your time. They can usually understand that and if they don't want to give you the time then they will appreciate the opportunity to bail and not waste both your time. But they don't like to hear about your problems on the first few dates. They want to be with someone who is upbeat.

[Crotch Rocket]

"I did not describe in detail beyond 'some bad experiences'" Thing is, you don't. That phrase, coupled with an inability to get physical, is inevitably going to lead any guy to think you've been raped and/or abused in the past. I've helped a female friend through the former and a sister through the latter, and those were the most emotionally draining experiences of my life; sorry, but I'm not taking on that kind of burden for a woman I just met. If that isn't what happened, I have to point out it's irrelevant: that's what guys are going to _think_ you meant, and that's what they're going to act on.

"It was part of the reason why I wanted to bring it up sooner rather than later so we could both cut our losses if we weren't on the same page." And that's fair. However, I would advise you not to be any more specific than to say you want to go slow until you get to know the guy, trust him, etc. And, in the meantime, see a therapist who can help you deal with your issues so that they don't impede your success in dating.

[FlutterBy]

OK-
This is my last input of further info... I know I opened myself up to scrutiny by posting the question here where we can all be anonymous. But I want you to know, I have had therapy about this and I don't think I should have to retreat from the dating scene because I have an issue. As a matter of fact my therapist and I both agreed that staying in my comfort zone and away from dating entirely was not working for my situation. Going to therapy or dealing with your issues, whatever they are, doesn't mean that one will never have to think about them or be completely free of anxiety forever after. You just learn how to face them and deal with them a little better as you go through life. But, I do agree that I might be even more vague in the future about my ultimate reasons for holding back.

There's plenty of men and women out there who are in denial about whatever issues or baggage they might have and are dating badly and not being as honest and open as I am trying to be. I like to think I'm at least somewhat ahead of the game in this department. And if you agree or don't agree, fine, I'm not coming back to check on any of your responses.

[AmyRose]

Honestly, I really think it depends on the guy your with. I think ppl on here tend to forget, everyone is flawed, some more than others. If there was some sexual trauma in your past, please, seek therapy. If you have been in therapy for it and its still an important issue to you than you do need to bring it to the table early on w a relationship, and also know that it may be a dealbreaker..or it may not. If you keep choosing the same kind of men and the same issues come up, then try a different kind of guy. I would also stay the F away from online dating or singles mixers where the guys generally have major issues w woman and are just looking for a pump and dump.

[DD]

Well too bad Flutter By isn't checking back anymore but I don't blame her. Almost none of the responses related to what she was saying but they were as usual on the nasty,negative side blaming her for even sharing.
Men who pounce on me physically/ sexually too soon are a problem for me as well. I'd like to discuss various ways to handle this valid complaint but I see this blog is not the venue.
Boys date for fun & free sex if at all possible. I'm wanting to date MEN who date for good company with a good desireable female. I hope those men that ask me out are with me because I have a little something else going on than looking good & sexy to them. If they want quick sex with a hot woman they don't really know yet, I can refer them to the back of any magazine and let their fingers do the walking.
Sadly, I have no sexual hangups nor am I a tease; I just like to be comfortable and choose to know a bit more about a man I trade spit,sweat & other fluids with. And what's wrong with that??? I'm calling a shrink now to talk about this.

[talkingdoc]

"a tad bit nutty"

you are mean.
and you are single.
you suck more.

[juli]

I hope the other female readers do not take to heart what these men say in this forum. Meaning, these men that insinuate that you must put out immediately to secure some attention.. this is ridiculous and manipulative on their part. This is NOT TRUE. As a commenter above stated.. LITTLE BOYS and MANCHILDREN expect the panties right away or lose interest. A full grown man will see the value in getting to know a woman, and the fun of the seduction game, rather then going straight for a home run. Oh I know.. my opinion is so old school and I'm living on fantasy island. Well, I don't think any women should compromise her standards for the run of the mill trash that demands sex on the 1st or 2nd date. Flutterby has every right to be in the dating scene and to play by her own rules. Just because screwing right away is what most people seem to do, does not make it emotionally responsible or right. (but don't get it twisted. I've been there and done that. Then I grew up.)

[trouble]

Flutter,

You just need to be clear that having sex is an emotional attachment for you, and you don't do it until you get to know the person better. You don't have to go into detail. You can tell people early on, by like the 2nd or 3rd date, or whenever it comes up. The ones who are only in it for sex will bail, and you will be better off.

It took about 2 months for my boyfriend and I to get intimate (10 dates). There are guys out there who aren't rushing anything, and that's the kind of guy you are looking for. Don't feel bad about guys not wanting to stick around, and wait, because those aren't the kind of guys you are looking for, anyway.

I wish you all the best.

[separated guy]

It sounds to me like the issue is one of selfishness rather than one of sex. If she stops defining herself by her issues and focuses on what she has to offer then she might get farther in a relationship.

She has to offer something to keep men's interest. That's not a code for sex; nt all men are in it for sex only. But most men don't like selfish, needy, entitled women. This is equally true for hot bodies that think that putting out entitles them to a man's bank account as it does for women who believe that their emotional scars entitle them to be babied.

The men who reacted viscerally to the original post are also out there on the streets. There's no reason to be more offended at their posts here than when dating them, especially as they've given Flutterby their honest opinion. If she runs away without listening then she's setting herself up to be disappointed when a man acts in real life like men here.

The world doesn't owe here anything, this blog doesn't owe her anything, and men she's met once or twice don't owe her much. So she may agree with her shrink that dating might be good for her. But she's not going to find someone to date her if all she shows is neediness.

[DD]

Right On Juli & Trouble! Flutterby, I hear you!
I'm curious as to why so many people that blog here feel compelled to refer everyone else to see a therapist? Is that because YOU see one, have seen one & it has WORKED for you??? Right. Therapy is what got half the Baby Boomers to be theapist who see therapist. And all of them are single again writing on blogs. Hmmm. It's obvious many people purposely write provacative responses here desperately hoping to insite attention to their miserable selves. They can't possibly believe what they say.

[JET]

"I'm curious as to why so many people that blog here feel compelled to refer everyone else to see a therapist?"

I think that people who tell others to see a therapist for the most part are not people who have ever seen a therapist themselves. The same goes for people who tell others to go on medication. Some people benefit from therapy and/or medication but not everyone does. A lot of therapists are pretty screwed up themselves (that is why they go into that field) and it is asking a lot of them to cure someone's problems.

[Kegs]

DD, I have actually never been to see a therapist in my life, being European it isn't something we do as commonly as people here do. And so I rarely suggest someone needs it. But in this case? She says 'when things start getting more physical than I can emotionally handle', which together with 'I've had some bad and scary experiences' makes it sound like getting close to a guy makes her want to freak out. You think the solution is to just keep on dating? What about the poor guys on the receiving end? This isn't just a girl who wants to hold back on sex a while because she gets attached or wants more closeness first, it's completely different.

For the record, I had a 'bad experience' when I was at a virgin 2 weeks after my 16th birthday, so my advice is not about hating or being negative, it's being realistic and speaking from experience. CR talks about experiences he has had with close family, and I'm sure others here know more too. Apart from talkingdoc, who was called out for being insensitive, I don't see anything that bad in any of the other responses.

[beach]

I do agree that "flutter" needs to see a therapist first before she waste's her time and her dates precious time. If she is not interested in a normal evolution of the relationship, then at the very least she should at least pick up the tab on dating expenses.

It's really not fair to lead a man on, waste his time on a relationship that's going nowhere and let him pay from his pocketbook as well. She should be the one picking up dating expenses if all she needs is a date-in-lieu of a therapist! - by the way still a lot cheaper than paying for a therapists time!

In any case in my experience, self respecting women happily share all dating expenses - take turns at taking each other out!

[Jojo]

I'm with DD, Julie and Trouble! The OP wants to take the physical aspect of the relationship slow. That does not mean that she is selfish nor needy. People have their reasons for taking things slow; whether it be getting to know the person more, avoid getting attached too quickly or bad experience. People do what feels right for them. Her choice to take things slow should be respected; just as the choice for a guy to bail if not getting sex by a certain time should be respected as well. The OP wants to know how to get her point across and people who responded with just saying that you want to take things slow and not give more detail is a good response. Crotch Rocket and beach also gave a good suggestion to pay for dates as well. The advice for her not to date is not the answer.

[Y]

Please know that baggage is quickly becoming the number one excuse for lots of men (and women) to look for greener grass. One has to understand that people are not perfect because the world isn't. Some folks will ditch the 80% of bliss they find in one person for the 20% of fantasy that might exist in another. The funny thing is, the "greener grass" rarely ever truly is. It just different, no better. The person you're with regardless of how better he or she was than the last will always come up short in some way, because guess what? They're not YOU.

I think that you should take your time. If he tries to bed you down right away, Let the guy know then and there that you're not interested in getting sexual too soon. You don't have to spill all your beans, but just let him know you that you'd prefer to get to know him better before getting physical. If he can't handle that, we'll f--- him. Let him go catch a crab sandwich from some fishy whore instead. He's not worth your time.

This is often true of women who were sexually or emotionally abused in some way. Some men think the answer is as simple as 1-2-3. You go to the doctor, take some magic pill and instantly fix this sort of stuff. Or, you beat it down like they do. Well, men are built differently and they learn to process damage differently. It just doesn't work that way for us women. Some guys just aren't built to handle angst issues, be they yours or their own, so this don't take it too personally. I think counseling might be a good idea. If you're physically wounded, you seek medical intervention. The same could be said for emotional wounds. You're hurting. Find someone who can provide the assistance you need.

Sorry for the length of this post, but I'm tired of seeing women mope around because some Dude rubbed them the wrong way. Get your power back girls! Some Men get off doing and saying what they do because pussy is a plummeting stock and and a good man is in high demand. Women don't understand their power anymore because we let Pornographers self-impose their definition of what's sexy on US. Well, I've got news for them, and the type of men they cater to. WE have standards too. WE hold the keys to Shangri-La. When it comes to our bodies, WE decide, not them. Let a dude know that access to your body is worth more than gold, and he's not going to get it without putting in the work. Never at any time in history have men been so petulant and frankly, "bitchy". I once asked an older man why some men were behaving this way, and he aptly said it was because "the men of your generation have become pussified". Hell, maybe they've OD'ed on it, Ladies, what do YOU think? and get the f-- out of here on that share the dating expenses crap. Let me ask you a question Beach. IF you were dating Adriana Lima, and not some random chic, would you ask HER to go dutch?

Men don't do that sort of shit with "hot" women, because they wouldn't dare. They only, and I mean ONLY do that shit with some of us because they we him. Not once have I EVER gone dutch on a date. I've offered, but a man knew if he said yes, there'd be good chance he'd be at home with Playboy by the end of the night.

Don't get me wrong, dutch is okay in certain cases--for people who are in an established, consistent dating relationship and, in that case, I'm certainly not adverse to helping out. However, I'm more of a traditional type. I'd rather have a man take me out for two franks and two cokes in the park than ask me to split the paycheck. Some men need to cancel that dutch B.S. --PUHLEEASE-- Skip ordering out two days next week, and get the check. You're willing to put the work in when it comes to getting tickets to the Knicks or stockpiling that porno collection. You can afford a coffee and Omelette breakfast at the IHOP when a real woman is involved. And don't remind of that women's lib stuff make an argument for Dutch. Just because you JUST figured out that we can wear the pants too doesn't give you the excuse to shirk yours. Who ultimately ends up birthing your babies, cooking your dinners, paying your bills and making sure your funky drawers are clean? All while maintaining a 9-5? You better believe you can afford an all expenses paid trip to the Olive garden now and again.

[Rose]

Clearly, he lost interest not because of your baggage. That is just a lame excuse on his part. He wanted sex, not a relationship. The good thing about what you did, is that you kept your dignity and self respect intact. And you saw what he's really made of, early on. Keep it up! You just found the secret on how to weed them (pigs!)out!

[talkingdoc]

if a guy ever asked me to go dutch my response would be simple...."sure, if you really need me to."