Is She Geographically & Personally Undesireable? - UPDATED

Dear Moxie:

Just a quick question.  Met a girl on match, we decided to meet
face-to-face.  Her profile said “New York, NY”.  During our
conversation last night she said she lived in Jersey City.  I was
unphased, I’ve seen that a lot.

We agreed to meet at a place in the West Village – not inconvenient
for me, I work in Soho & live on the Lower East.  For her it’s close
to the Christopher Street Path station.

Then last night (after the phone conversation) we had the following
text exchange:

Her: Hi do u think u could come to jersey city... Busy day tomorrow
for work... Thanks

Me: would it still be an 8p meeting? or earlier?

Her: Is 8 good for u? I work until 7 tomorrow... What works for u?

Me: wait, you got me confused. do you live and work in jersey city? i
will work til around 7-730p

Her: Just call me.

Me: at a friends apt, watching a movie. can we talk tomorrow?

Her: Sure.. Have a good night...


My “high maintenance” alarm bells are going off, but your instincts
are better than mine.  I’m not really into high maintenance over the
summer in this economy, so if you agree I think I’m going to cancel.

Thanks!
Tyler

Oh, Christ. Definitely cancel. "Just call me?" Is she for real? Is her vagina made of gold? Text Princess Di and tell her you reconsidered and that you'd prefer to date someone in the city due to your schedule.

I don't understand why people do that - put "New York" in their profile when they a) have the ability to choose their actual boro/location and b)know full well that most Manhattanites prefer to date people in Manhattan. I mean, I know why they do it. They want to come up in the searches and they want a better shot of being seen and meeting people. I do get it. But this kind of entitlement? Uh, no. She's the one that lied to begin with, so she should be the one to travel. ("She didn't lie! Jersey City IS New York City! Whatever. Manhattan is New York City in online dating-speak. Let's not play the semantics game on this one.) Gee, she has a busy day? Gosh, she must be the only person alive with a job who just came back from a holiday weekend with a "busy day."

Ditch her. You haven't even met her and she's asking you to jump through hoops for her. Sorry, but if you're using online dating in the first place, you really shouldn't be so picky and entitled.

Before the whole omigod you Manhattan people are such snobs argument starts, and it will, let me say this. If we're such snobs, then how come those outside of Manhattan schlep in here every weekend night and not the other way around? If we're such spoiled babies, why do you pursue us in the first place?

UPDATED TO CONFIRM SHE'S AN ENTITLED DOUCHE

In case anyone was wondering about the sense of entitlement, our correspondence today: 

Her: “Hi i figured things out and we can meet in NYC. How about close to 845 or 830?”

Me: “works great - i will pick a place close to the path station. looking forward to meeting you!”

Then she called & left a long VM explaining work, etc, asking if I could meet in Jersey City again around 845p.

I returned her call & said lets get together next week (I’m traveling late this week) when our schedules calm down (honestly I had already made other plans). 

Her final text: “You wont come to jersey city... U want the girl to come to u! What happened to the guy coming to the girl... Not interested.”

YOUR THOUGHTS?

Comments

[JMO]

ooooh - really wanna comment here. I did that. Wrote Manhattan on my profile though I lived right outside in NJ. I did it for exactly the reasons Moxie said- to come up in searches, and I actually did work in the city till about 7 every night- plus, I believed it was temporary (I moved in with my folks after a break-up left me "homeless")
HOWEVER, in my personal description, I wrote that I lived in Jersey (temporarily) because I didn't wanna be taken for a liar.
I would never, ever have expected a first date that lived in the city to come to jersey to meet me.
So, when I got tired of dating boring, superficial, entitled, inconvenient manhattan guys, I did a quick look to see what men were hanging out in jersey, and that's how I met my hubbo.
I dont fault this chic for writing manhattan- jersey city is closer than many parts of manhattan and it is about the search engines (providing she works in manhattan) but not "getting" that the requirement is on her to travel means she's ... well, yes. entitled.

[JMO]

I wanna amend my last sentance:
I dont fault this chic for writing manhattan- jersey city is closer than many parts of manhattan and it is about the search engines (providing she works in manhattan) but not "getting" that the requirement is on her to travel *after she lied about her location* means she's ... well, yes. entitled.

[Skiz]

I can understand the "Just call me" part. I'm not a big fan of texting and its so much easier to have a 5 minute conversation then a half hour of back and forth texting especially if things need to get clarified. You should just reschedule to a day when she's not so 'busy' so you can both meet halfway again.

[LizM]

I don't fault her for putting Manhattan. As long as she is willing to actually date in Manhattan.

[Tyler]

Skiz, I think the “just call me” part set off alarm bells because phones work both ways. I know women don’t typically like to call men, but even the 2 ladies who wrote “The Rules” said don’t call men *unless* you are changing plans.

It could have even been tempered into a question – “could you call me”. Or what I like to do, use text to set up a phone call (“Is this a good time to call?”)

I agree with you in the macro, though – confusion rarely gets worked out using text or email as a communications medium, people just don’t write or read well.

[bill]

She is a waste of time. Just move on. If meeting for the first time takes this much effort than she is probably not that attracted to you.

[David]

When I first got divorced, I tried dating a few women outside of Manhattan, and the logisitcs just became unworkable in most cases. The worst was the woman In Westchester who insisted I come up there for our first date, which I was willing to do as long as we moved future activites to the city (keep in mind she had a car, I don't). When it was time for a 2nd date, she kept putting off, until one day she calls me at 4:30 on a Saturday -- from her car -- to see if I wanted to take her out in Westchester again that night.

That was the end of that.

[aw]

ummm - I don't agree that she lied ... but you're being harsh on us outsiders. No shit that Manhattan is awesome. I don't live outside of it by choice. The problem is, it's friggin' next-to-impossible to meet remotely interesting people outside of Manhattan ... so I have to pursue people there. Otherwise, I am practically dooming myself to a life of being alone.

I mean, really, at our age, that's pretty much what it comes down to.

So if people in NYC only had a bit more of an open mind, it would be nice. Some of us have an NYC sensibility, but just can't live there. Greatness can be find around any corner. I realize that NYC dwellers already have a bazillion people to choose from in NYC - but if it were that easy, you wouldn't be single either. So stay open-minded, and you never know.

Again, that said, I agree that woman sounds ditch-worthy.

[trouble]

What makes her ditch-worthy, in my considerably long-distance opinion, isn't her place of residence, but the fact that she thinks that you should be the one to travel when she is the one changing plans and creating difficulties. fuck that noise. Any woman who doesn't get that she has an equal responsibility to make things work out is someone to be ditched, pronto.

[Denver Dan]

Trouble said it best.

[iiliana]

When I did the online dating thing I chose to put NYC on My profile for a few reasons
1st I work in Midtown East spend lots of time between LES and UES with my friends

2nd I didn't want to be categorized by where I live (at the time in Jamaica Estates)

I think Proximity is a huge factor and realize that If you are the one who lives further then you give up the whole right to have the my place or your place part of the relationship. I wouldn't travel to Harlem or Battery park for a guy while dating and It would have to be a guy I seriously liked to consider going to the west side. My current BF lives alone in midtown and its preferable especially because I work less then five minutes away but its also rare that he will travel to Williamsburg to visit (Thank god I'm a good cook) simply because he hates the train and I have a roommate.

[Themis]

Overlooking the fib, it's rude to cancel or change plans suddenly and demand someone accommodate your new schedule with unexpected travel. The first text she send and the "just call me" line is a red flag since she should have called to apologize and reschedule in the first place, not text passive aggressively.

I don't date outside of Manhattan because that basically boils down to a long-distance relationship with the trains. It makes weekday sleepovers nearly impossible unless you work close to each others' apartments too.

I don't think people should apologize about it, but as a female it makes it hard to date in the boroughs if a man isn't in Manhattan because he can't afford it. I'm not a gold-digger, but if I can make it on the island while working for a nonprofit, I'd prefer the convenience of dating someone similar and "local."

[Tyler]

In case anyone was wondering about the sense of entitlement, our correspondence today:

Her: “Hi i figured things out and we can meet in NYC. How about close to 845 or 830?”

Me: “works great - i will pick a place close to the path station. looking forward to meeting you!”

Then she called & left a long VM explaining work, etc, asking if I could meet in Jersey City again around 845p.

I returned her call & said lets get together next week (I’m traveling late this week) when our schedules calm down (honestly I had already made other plans).

Her final text: “You wont come to jersey city... U want the girl to come to u! What happened to the guy coming to the girl... Not interested.”

[Chris]

Better to find out someone is an asshole early on then after you become attached after sex.

Delete all emails, number, and her from your mind.

This is the kind of women that makes men cheat...

[Crotch Rocket]

"If we're such snobs, then how come those outside of Manhattan schlep in here every weekend night and not the other way around?" Being right doesn't mean you're not a snob about it.

The "just call me" makes sense to me; who really enjoys having a full-on conversation via text messages? It'd take an hour to get across what you could say in two minutes of talking. I do this all the time.

OTOH, she's completely out of line by asking him to come to Joisey; she advertised that she was in "New York, NY" and it's her responsibility to be in that location for dates. Maybe if it's a few dates in and she's inviting him to spend the night it'd be okay to ask him to travel to her; however, this is just a first date!

[VJ]

I'm with CR on this one too. If you say NY, NY, at the very least, be willing & able to Meet someone there. Jersey City, close though it may be? It's not NYC. See it's got that JERSEY thing right up front. No shame there. Just make it there or make it someplace else. Just don't call it NYC if you've got no intentions or traveling to make a date. The entire world does not revolve around you. At least not in NY, NY, anyways! Cheers, 'VJ'

[Treifalicious]

I just want to add that New York City consists of FIVE BOROUGHS, not one. When I lived outside Manhattan I usually put my zip code as where I worked (Midtown South) because I spent most of my waking hours in Manhattan anyway.

I think Manhattanites who won't date people who live outside Manhattan are stupid and I say this as someone who lives in Manhattan and, as I said earlier, spent all day every day in Manhattan when I didn't (and lived an hour away in the far reeaches of an outer borough with no cachet whatsoever). Part of me suspects that they are people not originally from New York who are using snobbery to cover up the fact thay they won't know where they are going once they leave Manhattan. When I lived in a far flung neighborhood in the outer boroughs, I just got off my ass and got on the subway. People who live in Manhattan can do it too.

Besides many cool people live in places like Brooklyn and Queens and many cool things go on in these boroughs. Cool things also go on in the Bronx and perhaps even Staten Island depending on what you're into. I have spent an hour on the subway to go to parties in Brooklyn that were way cheaper and better parties than Manhattan clubs that cater more to people buying bottle service than peopel here to dance to good music.

While Jersey Cioty can't lay claim to being part of New York City, it is close enough. You don't need a car or even a bus to get there, you can take teh train from within Manhattan as if it's a 6th borough or something. In fact, Jersey City is WAY easier to navigate than Staten Island. The real problem is the high maintenance attitude of expecting him to go out there first.

What they should do is perhaps take turns between Manhattan and Jersey City, as I'm sure there must be cool places to take a date in Jersey City.

[Denver Dan]

Wow Tyler, that girl is a crazy bitch. And that's why she's single.

[VJ]

Treif, We've done the whole 'NYC Boroughs' deal here. Fine point, but still seemingly most Manhattanites just don't want to travel much beyond about 10 blocks radius to get the deed done. Go figure.

But again, Jersey City. Is NOT NYC. Yes, it's close. But the significance of her lie about being in NYC? Well that comes in when she suddenly expects that he'll come to Jersey City to 'visit'. And hell, they'll likely take a train over to NYC for a date, right? So this dude Ty is looking at possibly no less than 4 round trips on Path just to show up and date Ms. Wonderful! Yeah. High maintenance anyone?

But the point on the outer boroughs is one that I happen to agree with, but evidently it's clearly a minority opinion. Not just in NYC, but in many large cities as well.

Me? I did not let distance put a cramp in my style. And this was like before the widespread advent of email. And motorcars... and that electric thingy stuff. You hand cranked the phone on the wall and called out 'Hello Central give me Dr. Jazz...'. You could look it up too!

Cheers & Good Luck, 'VJ'

[Chris]

this particular woman does sound like an ass and Jersey City is not new york. But the other 4 boroughs are in new york city, so let's not get carried away here (which of course moxie always does). I am sure I had to post this before, but much of downtown brooklyn area is more desireable than say the UES, and indeed much closer to downtown manhattan...so let's get over this manhattan snobbery. it's really not attractive. it's not per se better to live in manhattan. but I agree you should not lie about where you live in general....

[Quirky]

I agree with Chris. This woman sounds high maintenance. However, to the people who didn't grow up in this region, NYC is not comprised of Manhattan alone, and if you live in the LES, and would date someone from the UWS before someone from BK, then you're just a snob. I live in the burbs, but would put Manhattan in a profile because I actually work there and spend most of my waking hours there. If dating a guy from Manhattan, it's easy to go from work to dinner or his place - therefore when I say "Manhattan" it's cause I actually prefer to hang out there and don't use it as a bait and switch thing.

[badmash007]

Yes, the girl shouldn't have mentioned that she lived in NYC, but asking somebody to come to where she is versus coming to where he is, is a pretty common thing. OK, last min change of plans are a bad sign. I'll give you that.

However, I'm just amazed at the entitlement and materialistic attitude of manhattanites. It is not just distance but it is also in terms of every thing else.

I guess if you are someone who is willing to pay twice for rent/mortgage to have a "cool" zipcode, you are also likely to spend twice as much in dinner, vacations, clothing, just to appear cool.

That is why after I decided to not to date anyone who lives in manhattan but anywhere in boroughs, quality of my dates improved significantly.

[a]

Leave this woman alone. Unless you like being lead around by a noose! She is going to push you around and then leave...Sounds as if she is just getting over someone or is looking for someone for casual times...This woman is not being serious for unknown reasons....A.

[a]

Oh, and forget all of this borough and proximity business...If someone is NICE and Flexible, it could work out! She is not for whatever reason-- I am a woman and I know that she is not handling you correctly--she might be bitter/burnt or juggling men! This time change business does not sit well with me. A.

[WO7]

The issue in the ACTUAL LETTER is that she agreed to meet in NYC and then changed things up last minute (and seems like she's still changing things up). The west village is halfway between jersey city and LES. Seems like a fair meeting point to me. Then she pulled the whole "Why don't guys come to girls anymore." I've seen this a lot from people who live outside of NYC (NYC as in all 5 boroughs), and are talking to and searching for men inside NYC. Most of these people have cars, and don't realize that what takes 30 minutes by car can take 1.5 hours by public transportation.

A brief side point is that she puts NYC in her profile when she lives in Jersey City. To me, this is not the issue presented in the letter. She tells the guy she lives in Jersey City first conversation. Then Moxie uses this as a weak segway into her common "the boroughs aren't Manhattan" rant.

The kind of person who lives in Manhattan and writes off other places that exist ON THE NYC SUBWAY SYSTEM is the kind of person you want to stay WELL clear of for dating. They are someone who spends all of their income on eating out, shoes, handbags, and rent; and saves no money for their future. This person is NOT a catch. Let them be snobby about how they live in "NYC". Then you can be snobby when you own a townhouse in NYC in 10 years and they're still renting a studio apartment in the UES near york st.

[eternalOptimist]

is there a word for a female douche bag?

[ajh]

As a person born, raised and STILL living in Manhattan, a few points:
1. I consider NYC = ALL 5 boroughs
2. I make an effort to spend time OUTSIDE of Manhattan (last weekend was Jersey and this weekend is Brooklyn)
3. Although I am slightly offended at the anti-Manhattanites comment, in my experience, most Manhattan snobs turn out to be transplants that for some reason, feel the need to "claim" more of a NYC status than people that may be from NYC. We're not all bad in Manhattan.

That being said, I just think the whole changing plans scenario is a huge red flag and that if your ACTUAL geographical location IS an option, then use it.

As for the travel, I am traditional at heart and feel that the guy SHOULD go to the girl. However, logistics should be taken into account (work, location, etc.). As a real life example, I met a first date in Hoboken b/c it is conveniently close to the PATH, had a good selection of date places and was accessible for both of us. (He lives in North Jersey.)

He was sweet enough to pick me up at the train station and then actually drove me back to Manhattan due to the late hour.

[laughoutloud]

Glad it didn't work out-- b/c
Lazy Manhattan Snobs and Flaky Jersey Princesses would have made a bad couple.

[Carlos Nunez]

LOL.

You think that's bad? I had a date with someone who put NYC in her online profile. She was from CALIFORNIA and was visiting. For a week.

(We had a good time, and we've chatted a bit since she left. Either way, good decision to drop her!)

[Carlos Nunez]

Another LOL.

I don't quite understand why people WOULDN'T want to travel to the outer boroughs. Cool stuff happens in Brooklyn ALL of the time, as well as in Queens, Bronx and Staten Isalnd (though you WILL have to travel for those on most occasions). On top of that, NYC is blessed to have a reliable (considering its age and size), 24/7 train system that connects everything together, along with ferries AND buses! Maybe people would appreciate the (lack of) distance more if everything was connected by buses than ran every hour...if they ran at all.

I wonder how many people know that the upper areas in Bronx are some of the nicest places in all of NYC...

[Mike]

I understand those that are offended that some people consider the other boroughs or NJ not part of NYC but there is a practical issue rather than snobbery. I prefered to date Manhattan women as it was simply too difficult to see a woman outside Manhattan and I felt awkward insisting they always come to me. I work long hours and would struggle to make an 8pm dinner reservation that is close to me so it becomes a full blown event to get outside Manhattan for 8pm. Then I travel one or two weekends per month. Thus, dating someone outside Manhattan meant I would only see them once or twice a month - hardly a good way to start a relationship. I had no issues with girls in Brooklyn, Queens or wherever but simply found it more practical to focus on women in Manhattan.

[Craig]

This woman really has no standing to be mad the dude won't travel to see her when she was the one who was dishonest about where she lives. Given that it was she who lied, she should have been the one doing the traveling to the place she claimed to live in order to see this dude. I suppose people should be free to date whoever they want wherever they want. But I'll never really understand Manhattanites who will only date others from that borough. Sometimes not even being anywhere in Manhattan is good enough. You have to be in the right parts of Manhattan. If you live in places such as Harlem or Inwood, many people who live below the 90s won't date you either. Hell, I believe it was upper east sider Moxie who once complained that traveling to SoHo to meet someone was too far!

I've always felt that if I can get to you within an hour by any means, that's geographically desirable. I have dated women as far away as Stamford, CT with that guideline. There are only about 2 million people residing in Manhattan, and if you're lucky perhaps 15% of that number is within your dating pool and available. This is out of a total metro area of over 20 million people. Why in God's name would anyone limit their options so much is beyond me. Isn't it hard enough already? My lady was living in Queens when we met (she has since joined me in Hoboken). The hour it once took me to get to her was worth every minute (though we mostly met halfway in Manhattan). I wouldn't have met her had I limited my geographical dating area. To those who insist on only dating people who live in Manhattan, I'd say you aren't guilty of doing anything wrong, but good luck with that.

[Larry]

Moxie, you may be right about Manhattanites only wanting to date other Manhattanites but you're still a snob. Perhaps if you opened up your mind and geographical area then you wouldn't still be single yourself. Also, I don't consider the Upper Eastside a desirable area of Manhattan anyway. It is a pain in the ass to get up there with not many cool bars or clubs and my friends and I never hang out there. You are in an area that is just as geographically undesirable as the boroughs. Personally I would rather date someone in Hoboken or Williamsburg over the Upper Eastside because at least they are easier to get to and have more interesting places to hang out.

[C]

The location is moot, like a few others said it's that she keeps trying to change the plans and

If you like someone it doesn't matter where they live, she's too lazy to make ANY effort so: she's just not that into him. She just chose to be passive aggressive and play the victim as if he was the problem instead of saying she didn't feel it.

I haven't dated on-line in a while but when I did and lived in Manhattan (just moved to BK last month) I didn't care where the guy lived any boro, NJ as long as it was near a cheap train station(Path/MTA vs. Metro North/NJ Transit) or he was fine with driving. I struggled with Connecticut and West Chester cause without a car it was just not realistic.